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Old 23-04-2012, 10:59   #76
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

I think the thread is a little off topic. The fishermen were no where near any piracy area, "off of Panama in Pacific ocean near Galopagos".

While this has been portrayed as a first world, third world mismatch, I don't see it that way.

1. Even though fishermen may wave at passing ships, standing up and waving a red cloth with both hands is a distress signal. If anyone gives a false distress signal they should be punished by their own government, when reported.

2. I don't want to be in a situation where a Captain of a passing luxery ship looks at my, (probably ragged clothes, and unshaved beard if I've been adrift awhile), my boats condition, and newness and state of repair, before deciding whether I am "rich enough to rescue".

We pay the Government to operate a coast guard, and fire, ambulance, and police so that anyone that needs help can get it, when they need it.

Private ships, (and citizens), are expected to participate and assist until these forces are able to arrive as part of the expected tax, (our time and effort), so we don't have to pay the amount of taxes needed to have a police, firemen, coast guard rescue ship, etc... follow everyone around at all times.

Bottom line, unless the cruise liner would have been in danger to go back, they should have launched a tender to check it out.

If my boat was there, I would have at least given them a case of water, and radio'd their coast guard.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:10   #77
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Why do you feel everything is about money? Why do you put a value on everything?
Money is the symbol we trade for food, shelter, medicine, protection, and the rest of of humans needs. Labors trade time in their life for money to buy the previously mentioned items. They don't do so out of the kindness in their heart, they do it because it's their best option. In order to get what they want, they have to trade something that they don't want to do for it. Investors take the money that they earned from their labor, and use it to invest in organizations. That money cost them time of their life to collect. For pensioners, it cost them their ENTIRE working life to collect. They'll never get another chance for more time. The only way they will be willing to invest is if the organization gives them more money back in the future.

In other words, when we're trading money, we are LITERALLY trading part of our life time. If the captain is diverting the vessel, and spending the shipping companies money, he's spending part of the life time of all the investors in the shipping firm. That is not something to take lightly. I guarantee you that the investors in the firm won't take to losses kindly, it's part of their life. For everything there is a cost, even acts of charity.

Maybe it is a duty in society to be charitable. I honestly believe that is the case. However, it's a sad day when people can't recognize charity when it happens, and be thankful for it.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:19   #78
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
The sooner you reverse this thinking, the better off you're going to be. There is not a price on people. There is a price we pay for our actions...Now listen up...
Good thoughts create good actions which in turn create good circumstances. Inversely, Bad thoughts (3 boys in a disabled boat are ok to let die because the cruise ship is too important) create bad actions ("screw it, I can't be bothered") create bad circumstances (2 of the 3 boys won't be going to next years spring prom).
Why do you feel everything is about money? Why do you put a value on everything?
If we want to get philisophical he doeas have a point, although I don't believe is applies here as people needing rescued is a rare event. And we all do pay taxes to insure there is at least someone able to do so.

But ultimately it IS all about money, money is a placeholder for wealth. I can eat, because I have money and can trade it to a farmer that grows food. He uses My money to buy things that help him grow more food than he could without. (tractor, etc...).

As it turns out I make computerised equipment that makes everybody who works more efficient, even reducing the number of people needed to produce the same amount. Should I starve, everybody will be force to produce less, causing many more to starve.

Any economic system needs to protect and support it's producers first, and anyone else second, or it will cease to exist. That is the basic problem with both socialism, and communism. They both punish the producers, and reward the nonproducers.

In the absurd; if all freighters and cruise liners spent all their time rescuing people we would soon have no freighters, or cruise liners as they would go bankrupt. But it is such a rare event all ships should be able to factor in a little extra to help in an emergency.

Example I carry extra water, in part to insure I don't need rescued, and also in case someone else needs it.

A part of participating in a civilization is that those that produce more than they need are expected to help those that cannot produce, old, infirm, sick, etc...Because we will all be there some day.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:32   #79
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

Will any CF member, who is currently the Captain of a 30000? ton liner, with 3000 people on board, who has steamed past a small boat on the ocean, and not stopped to look, please explain why.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:59   #80
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

I believe a great deal, if not all, of the blame falls upon the ship's captain and senior crew. It's true that in life, especially life on land, there are many factors which which contribute to or diminish our capacity to accomplish one thing or another, but we are not talking about an occurrence on land. We are talking about an incident that took place place at sea.

The sea does not have lawyers, accountants or human resources departments. The sea does not compromise, negotiate, consider AR/AP reports, or adjust its schedule to accommodate an appointment. The sea exists as a raw, primal force of nature. This is why maritime laws were established. In order to create a functioning and universally understood set of rules to operate in an environment that is separate and unique from the systems of society and government which operate on land.

Rendering aid to a vessel or person at sea is paramount. Regardless of the size and scope of the vessel in distress or rendering aid. We (sailors, mariners, fishermen, cruisers and paddlers) have only each other for support and assistance.

I know I will always render any and all aid I can to anyone in the water. I do not see a question about it. Whether I am a captain of a rowboat or cruise liner. If I see that there is a vessel/person in distress, I will use any and all resources at my disposal to help them as long I can maintain the safety of my own crew and ship. Otherwise, I should just stay on land.

A cruise liner has no excuse for not stopping to investigate, They could have sent out one of their small bots with one or two security personnel while the cruise ship maintains its station.

It just feel like a small number of these "captains" are cowards that destroy the good reputations and proud history of all the true Captains.

Sorry...angry time has ended.
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Old 23-04-2012, 12:12   #81
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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I think for the most part you are correct on an individual basis. What I do, what you do, as individuals is entirely different from what the "corporation" tells you to do. You can do what YOU think is correct on your time but not on company time. Do so at your own peril. Whistle blowers tend to find themselves without jobs rapidly.

Corporations don't give a tinkers' damn about people. Its all about the money.
While I respectfully agree with the corporate way of thinking, this was a case of the a person thinking "life" has a price. All of us are entrusted with a higher purpose for our fellow man and nature. Collectively we cannot be controlled by corporations unless we have something to loose that we feel we need to hold onto. I have dignity and a sense of self that mandates I help others. A corporation can't take that away.
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Old 23-04-2012, 12:14   #82
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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But I'll bet money that if the Captain did so, figuring he was covered under that law, his job would still be history.
Maybe, maybe not. Right now cruise lines need a bit of good publicity and a headline--cruise ship rescues doomed fishermen--would probably have made more money than an hour or two's delay. Failing that, a radio call to the nearest naval vessel or authority would have been cheap and fast.
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Old 23-04-2012, 12:16   #83
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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Originally Posted by ViribusUnitis View Post
Money is the symbol we trade for food, shelter, medicine, protection, and the rest of of humans needs. Labors trade time in their life for money to buy the previously mentioned items. They don't do so out of the kindness in their heart, they do it because it's their best option. In order to get what they want, they have to trade something that they don't want to do for it. Investors take the money that they earned from their labor, and use it to invest in organizations. That money cost them time of their life to collect. For pensioners, it cost them their ENTIRE working life to collect. They'll never get another chance for more time. The only way they will be willing to invest is if the organization gives them more money back in the future.

In other words, when we're trading money, we are LITERALLY trading part of our life time. If the captain is diverting the vessel, and spending the shipping companies money, he's spending part of the life time of all the investors in the shipping firm. That is not something to take lightly. I guarantee you that the investors in the firm won't take to losses kindly, it's part of their life. For everything there is a cost, even acts of charity.

Maybe it is a duty in society to be charitable. I honestly believe that is the case. However, it's a sad day when people can't recognize charity when it happens, and be thankful for it.

It would be interesting to see how this thinking works for you in the future. Good luck with that....oh...better carry a life raft and EPIRB where ever you go...
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Old 23-04-2012, 12:26   #84
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

Every human life is priceless.
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Old 23-04-2012, 12:27   #85
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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It would be interesting to see how this thinking works for you in the future. Good luck with that....oh...better carry a life raft and EPIRB where ever you go...
Agree.. and having a T-shirt stating "Viribusunitus" and enough carbage so we don't have to bother to save your a$$ for nothing
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Old 23-04-2012, 12:50   #86
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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Will any CF member, who is currently the Captain of a 30000? ton liner, with 3000 people on board, who has steamed past a small boat on the ocean, and not stopped to look, please explain why.
32,000 ton, 30,000 hp is used to hold position, so the small boat would have to steam by me instead.

Any others?

~caution, thread drift~

Astrid, would love to see your avatar full size with your Husky. Please?
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Old 23-04-2012, 13:38   #87
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

When I was 12 I was piloting my Dad's 40' sports fishing charterboat west toward Islamorada, FL -- probably about 13 miles out -- still out of sight of land. Dad was below with the guests; I was running the boat from the flying bridge when I spotted a small boat drifting in the Gulf Stream. Wrong location. No good reason for a boat that size at that location. I pointed it out to Dad; he ordered me to divert course. When we got there we found 6 people, no radio, no flares, their engine dead, the boat sinking. 6 people lived rather than died. I remember this often, to this day. I can't picture our having done otherwise than what we did. But even trying to imagine living with the guilt -- if I'd later read in the papers those people had drowned because we'd passed them by -- can give me the willies. Whatever did or didn't happen on the bridge of that cruise ship, I sure wouldn't want to been a passenger on a ship that didn't stop.

Let's continue to monitor and be ready to scream a protest heard 'round the world if justice is truncated over this.
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Old 23-04-2012, 13:41   #88
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

What ever happened to waiting for all the facts before making a conviction? We're an awfully sad bunch if we'll convict on what we read in a newspaper or hear on the radio or see on TV. I'd bet dollar's to donuts that there are a lot more rescues than not. But they don't make the news.
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Old 23-04-2012, 14:07   #89
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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If it's just me on the other hand, I don't have anywhere near that level of resources. And the costs of a rescue don't scale down to my level well. For example, if a ship is missing or a boat is missing, it cost the same to put an aircraft up to find the ship. If they have to send a ship out to rescue me, it costs the same for just me, all the way up to how ever many people the ship can pick up. If they have to send out a helicopters, it costs the same for one person, or all the people the craft can pick up.

The only way I can come up with small boaters having that kind of distribution of costs is through insurance. The odds of finding insurance for small boats with unlicensed captains of uncertified yachts in open water seems slight. And even if it was available, the premium would likely be higher than people could pay. The odds of 3rd world fishermen buying
all I can say is thank god for taxation. id hate to be living in your society.

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Old 23-04-2012, 17:07   #90
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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Originally Posted by Kalinka1 View Post
What ever happened to waiting for all the facts before making a conviction? We're an awfully sad bunch if we'll convict on what we read in a newspaper or hear on the radio or see on TV. I'd bet dollar's to donuts that there are a lot more rescues than not. But they don't make the news.
Most here are not a sad bunch, we are appalled by this incident. Some here maybe on the fringe with their attitude to human life. But it is a fact this happened, or are you reading from a different book.. I applaud all the unsung rescues, bet it takes just one low act like this to taint all the rest. The good acts don't always get a mention due to them being right and proper, but the low and despicable acts rate high emotion and as seen here starts heavy discussions.
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