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Old 22-04-2012, 17:14   #61
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

As an added comment:
In command of large Super yachts, we often get local fisherman waving at us trying to catch our attention and make us stop.

My standing orders are that I am informed before any action is taken.
I look at them thru the high powered stabilized binocs, look at their waterline, assess the distance from shore and whether their setup is mostly for night fish.

95% of the time we do not stop but only detour for a closer look.

The times we have stopped at a safe distance …it turned out they wanted to trade some fish for beer or cigarettes.

3rd world fisherman often go out to sea for days, fishing at night, sleeping during the day, trusting to their gods that they will safely come back home.

It is a tough life, without regulations or support and controlled by the subsistence needs of their families

Who knows, I may have made a wrong call at one time, but that is the price of command and you have to live with it.

I have saved a few fisher men clinging on to their upturned boats after a storm, but that is different.
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Old 22-04-2012, 17:37   #62
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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.............., I have a heart and care about the welfare of others, even pirates. I know of a captain that after having the bridge windows shot out by pirates, performed a Williamson turn in the dark, heavy fog, logged a MOB drill, and proceeded to use ARPA on the radar to insure, instead of avoid collision, surely all aboard the attacking vessel perished.
There are a lot of people who would applaud the captain's actions after his bridge windows were SHOT out. There was little doubt as to the pirates intentions, was there?

That is a huge difference from ignoring the plight of those in a panga hundreds of miles out at see, and then logging avoidance of fishing nets as an excuse.
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Old 22-04-2012, 17:54   #63
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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There are a lot of people who would applaud the captain's actions after his bridge windows were SHOT out. There was little doubt as to the pirates intentions, was there?

That is a huge difference from ignoring the plight of those in a panga hundreds of miles out at see, and then logging avoidance of fishing nets as an excuse.
I do not applaud his actions and if in his position, would have just sailed off. This particular container ship was one of the last, very un-economical turbine powered that wasn't sold off to MSC. Even at 18 kt, fuel burn was much higher than diesel, but was capable of something north of 24 kt. Had the watch awakened the captain when radar first told them that a vessel was coming at couple points astern on a converging course, I believe it would have not become a problem. But the watch just kept blindly following standing orders as to speed and heading. This container ship could outrun most pirate vessels. Even when ordered by the pirates to stop for boarding, he maintained speed and course. Didn't wake the old man until after the gun fire.
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Old 22-04-2012, 18:37   #64
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Re: Princess Cruise ignores distressed fishermen.

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The above by Jane.Joy is a tough pill, but true.

Here is the mind set, from the beginning at the maritime academies, respect of rank is drilled into each midshipmen. Then you join your union, MM&P and find out the little secrets that the union doesn't admit to, such as the ship owner can choose their captain and sometimes the captain is allowed to choose the 1st officer (chief mate). I don't think I've met any chief mates that serve on the same ship as per the captain's request, that doesn't have their captain's license. Same applies to most being assigned out of the union hall, most all 2nd mates have their 1st or captain's license. Chances are very good if a deck officer is sailing, assigned to a ship as a 2nd and has his captain's license, he was once a "picked" captain that somehow came at odds with a shipping company.

If our union, Masters, Mates, & Pilots would show some backbone when dealing with the shipping companies and insist all manning is done from the hall, normal rank progression would be assured and doing the "right thing" in all circumstances would become SOP.

Just my 0.02 worth, and it isn't even worth that much.
And this is a prime example of why I chose to sail foreign flag after getting out of the maritime academy. eventually migrating to oilfield rather than put up with this.
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Old 22-04-2012, 18:51   #65
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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Fair enough. I'll be the first to admit that my point of view of the world is often unusual.

What my short life has taught me so far is that everyone has a price, and there is a price for everyone. The only question ever seems to be what is it, and how high it is. I didn't always believe such, but I've been disillusioned.

As a side note, if your going to do it on a cost basis, rescuing the thousands of passengers on a liner in trouble is likely be a cost that the passengers can pay. If there are one thousand passengers and crew on the ship, and they might be willing to pay up to $100,000 per person to have their lives saved. After all, how much do you think you could get your hands on to save your life? Most people and their families in the developed world could probably pull together that much. That's a potential $100,000,000 that might be available for a rescue. That will easily pay the operating budget of aircraft and ships for a pretty decent sized rescue. In addition, a cruise ship will likely have insurance. In this case, the cost of the rescue would be split between possibly millions of clients over years of operation. With something like that, it's fairly easy to split a billion dollars apart into a pieces that individual people are willing to pay. In addition, the cruise ship itself is very valuable. If it can be salvaged, then it can be used to pay the rescuers for their services.

If it's just me on the other hand, I don't have anywhere near that level of resources. And the costs of a rescue don't scale down to my level well. For example, if a ship is missing or a boat is missing, it cost the same to put an aircraft up to find the ship. If they have to send a ship out to rescue me, it costs the same for just me, all the way up to how ever many people the ship can pick up. If they have to send out a helicopters, it costs the same for one person, or all the people the craft can pick up.

The only way I can come up with small boaters having that kind of distribution of costs is through insurance. The odds of finding insurance for small boats with unlicensed captains of uncertified yachts in open water seems slight. And even if it was available, the premium would likely be higher than people could pay. The odds of 3rd world fishermen buying it seem even smaller.
It amazes me how folks, can have an ostrich mentality when it comes to their fellow man. To say to someone hey you will be left to die because you are poor, unworthy, stupid of just unlucky, does not sit well with me.
I think anyone who has been out on the big wide ocean has thought about all the what ifs, and has set up there vessel the best they could to look after themselves and their crew for all but the most catastrophic mishap. Knowing that help will if possible arrive given all the variables and geographical location. My view maybe through rose tinted glasses but I think that captain should be hung and made an example of. And the company not just fined but de-registered.
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Old 22-04-2012, 18:51   #66
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
I do not applaud his actions and if in his position, would have just sailed off. This particular container ship was one of the last, very un-economical turbine powered that wasn't sold off to MSC. Even at 18 kt, fuel burn was much higher than diesel, but was capable of something north of 24 kt. Had the watch awakened the captain when radar first told them that a vessel was coming at couple points astern on a converging course, I believe it would have not become a problem. But the watch just kept blindly following standing orders as to speed and heading. This container ship could outrun most pirate vessels. Even when ordered by the pirates to stop for boarding, he maintained speed and course. Didn't wake the old man until after the gun fire.

Oh come on, that's like saying the rapist tried to get my wife, but we decided to leave the area and let him rape and kill some other woman.

I'm a fan of the "Williamson Turn", the perfect answer to piracy.
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Old 22-04-2012, 19:03   #67
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Re: Princess Cruise ignores distressed fishermen.

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And this is a prime example of why I chose to sail foreign flag after getting out of the maritime academy. eventually migrating to oilfield rather than put up with this.
Small world. I sailed foreign at US wages because foreign flagged is about all there is except for Matson (west coast to Hawaii), the Mississippi, Great Lakes, and Washington State ferries. A lot of my classmates took the lower paying MSC gigs and are happy. I also went into the offshore oilpatch with Noble Drilling.
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Old 22-04-2012, 19:14   #68
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

The Captan is responsible for every thing that happens on his vessel, irrespective of size of the vessel.

From super tanker to a 15 foot runabout, Your the Captan and you are totally responsible for all that happens on your boat.

I read on one of these forums that the captain was held responsible for a mishap on his vessel and lost his Captans ticket,

And he was on annual leave and was not on the vessel at the time,

So they do look at it very seriously,

Would you like to be sinking and the boats passing gave you a wave and kept going,
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Old 22-04-2012, 19:14   #69
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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Oh come on, that's like saying the rapist tried to get my wife, but we decided to leave the area and let him rape and kill some other woman.

I'm a fan of the "Williamson Turn", the perfect answer to piracy.
Maybe a bit of Somalia pirate history is in order. Most pirates were just fishermen before large fish harvesting ships from other countries started invading their territorial waters. They fought back and also included other merchant vessels for just the booty in the captain's safe (the very old maritime law that stipulates all ships must carry enough in funds to pay all crew in full at any port, should the shipping company fold), and all the cigs they could carry. Nobody got hurt, it was almost just considered the luck of the draw if your ship was hit during a passage.

I'll admit now with both ships and crew being held for ransom, things have escalated, but increased insurance costs for arming the merchant vessels has kept owners to just creating "safe rooms" and remote ability to disable ship's systems.

Do you know how this should be handled?
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Old 22-04-2012, 19:49   #70
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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..... Most pirates were just fishermen before large fish harvesting ships from other countries started invading their territorial waters. .......

Do you know how this should be handled?
That is akin to saying…. Most rapists were just horny schoolboys at one time and couldn’t get any…..

I would handle someone shooting at me with extreme prejudice!
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Old 22-04-2012, 19:52   #71
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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Adding to deckofficers valid observations about commercial command:

They discuss with you in maritime college that company pressure to increase profits will often put you at odds with the safe and right thing to do, but at the end of the day you need to satisfy both.

Maintaining your ethics and hopefully your job is not something they can teach you.

What I find interesting about all this righteous indignation is that it comes with a certain amount of hypocrisy::

1 Many complain that taxpayer’s money is being wasted on rescuing ill-equipped or badly trained boaters.

2 Others feel we are being over-regulated at sea and they take the bold position that self rescue is preferred and they won’t carry an EPIRB

3 This story makes the news, but we ignore the thousands dying daily from hunger or other atrocities.

I feel sorry for the fisherman who died, but the ship’s crew involved will need to live with themselves over what part they actually played. They are the only real judges
Here here well said.
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Old 22-04-2012, 22:34   #72
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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Originally Posted by ViribusUnitis View Post
What my short life has taught me so far is that everyone has a price, and there is a price for everyone. The only question ever seems to be what is it, and how high it is. I didn't always believe such, but I've been disillusioned.

As a side note, if your going to do it on a cost basis, rescuing the thousands of passengers on a liner in trouble is likely be a cost that the passengers can pay. If there are one thousand passengers and crew on the ship, and they might be willing to pay up to $100,000 per person to have their lives saved. After all, how much do you think you could get your hands on to save your life? Most people and their families in the developed world could probably pull together that much. That's a potential $100,000,000 that might be available for a rescue. That will easily pay the

The only way I can come up with small boaters having that kind of distribution of costs is through insurance. The odds of finding insurance for small boats with unlicensed captains of uncertified yachts in open water seems slight. And even if it was available, the premium would likely be higher than people could pay. The odds of 3rd world fishermen buying it seem even smaller.
The sooner you reverse this thinking, the better off you're going to be. There is not a price on people. There is a price we pay for our actions...Now listen up...
Good thoughts create good actions which in turn create good circumstances. Inversely, Bad thoughts (3 boys in a disabled boat are ok to let die because the cruise ship is too important) create bad actions ("screw it, I can't be bothered") create bad circumstances (2 of the 3 boys won't be going to next years spring prom).
Why do you feel everything is about money? Why do you put a value on everything?
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Old 22-04-2012, 23:36   #73
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

Well, another take on this situation is: Why in the hell was it obvious to a couple of birders what was happening and not the bridge crew? At Best I'd say they were grossly negligent.

A couple hundred miles offshore there should have be a FEW eyes on that panga in the bridge.
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Old 23-04-2012, 10:11   #74
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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You didnt see this story (with audio) on the other thread?


Sounds to me like the captain was not only guilty of not assisting mariners in distress leading to death but also of fabricating evidence.
Negative, I hadn't seen that yet. Obviously things are coming out as time passes. If it turns out as you say, then certainly the man needs to be imprisoned and his ticket yanked.
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Old 23-04-2012, 10:30   #75
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Re: Princess Cruise Ignores Distressed Fishermen.

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The sooner you reverse this thinking, the better off you're going to be. There is not a price on people. There is a price we pay for our actions...Now listen up...
Good thoughts create good actions which in turn create good circumstances. Inversely, Bad thoughts (3 boys in a disabled boat are ok to let die because the cruise ship is too important) create bad actions ("screw it, I can't be bothered") create bad circumstances (2 of the 3 boys won't be going to next years spring prom).
Why do you feel everything is about money? Why do you put a value on everything?
Respectfully, I think you are wrong and are proved wrong every day. Money is the god of most people. Every corporation puts a price on people. How much do we pay him, how much can we save by canning him. How much money do we save by shutting down this factory and moving it to China? How much is this injury worth? How much is his life worth if he dies? Oh, he lost an hand, Lets see, that's $5kLook at the mess in Afghanistan. Some guy goes postal and kills a dozen people. What are their lives worth? $50k if I remember the article correctly.

I think for the most part you are correct on an individual basis. What I do, what you do, as individuals is entirely different from what the "corporation" tells you to do. You can do what YOU think is correct on your time but not on company time. Do so at your own peril. Whistle blowers tend to find themselves without jobs rapidly.

How many jobs are there currently for Master Mariners? Not many, I'll wager. The company tells you to keep going, meet the schedule, meet the fuel consumption numbers etc or your job is history. Certainly the law says a ship must come to the aid of those in distress. But I'll bet money that if the Captain did so, figuring he was covered under that law, his job would still be history. Corporations don't give a tinkers' damn about people. Its all about the money.
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