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Old 19-10-2015, 21:51   #31
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Possible loss of sv Europa"?

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Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
Please no offense meant to fiberglass monohulls. The statement that they dont belong in waters when there are possible Cat 4 and Cat 5 typhoons are based on storms very few of you will ever experience. The reality is 75% of storms this year have grown to that size. It is a record.


Just look at how many typhoons there have been this year. It is not impossible to safely sail a fiberglass monohull in these waters. It is highly important to know where they are likely to be, pick the right time, and watch for surprises.

I don't disagree that fiberglass monohulls don't generally belong in cat 4-5. I think most small craft would be wise to follow the same.

Are you suggesting your trimaran is designed to survive in a cat 4-5 storm? Impressive...
Also, when you suggest "storms very few of YOU will ever experience" do you mean have you sailed through cat 4-5? Equally impressive...


Respectful of your experience and large boat, but to me the loss of the crew and boat is a bit fresh to be touting one's excellence in counterpoint.
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Old 20-10-2015, 05:19   #32
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Re: Possible loss of sv Europa"?

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. It is a trimaran and would remain afloat even if hulled in a single ama. In fact it still floats if hulled in every single compartment. I havent tried test C. )
Be careful out there, many a trimarans have set out to cross oceans never to be seen or heard from again.
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Old 20-10-2015, 06:04   #33
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Re: Possible loss of sv Europa"?

I found these graphs on Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015...typhoon_season

There is a summary for each year and specific pages for big storms


Also see the page Accumulated Cyclone Energy (ACE)

The total energy of Pacific storms is already 3rd highest since records and season is not over.
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Old 20-10-2015, 06:34   #34
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Re: Possible loss of sv Europa"?

Malbert
Yes I have experienced a Cat 5, and the eye struck within 50 km. It was Yolanda Fall 2013. I was not sailing. This my whole point. I, and my crew, were not even aboard. We were in a concrete school building high above sea level. That is the proper place to weather these kind of storms. 14 lines secured me to shore. 4 of them were chains.

I have every confidence my vessel will save my life in a full Cat 5 if I became caught in one. If caught, I don't expect to have a pilot house and may lose the mast.

CSY Man...yes I intend to remain careful and most respectful of these typhoons. It is fairly clear from historical records when the low season is for typhoons. Those are the times I tend to travel.
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Old 20-10-2015, 21:16   #35
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Re: Possible loss of sv Europa"?

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My friends have paid the ultimate price for being wrong about their assessment , that the depression would fizzle out over land or would not reorganised so quickly.

So no argument from me that they made a tragic mistake.

I am more interested in what caused the boat to founder, as i believe it should not have.
My condolences for the loss of your friends at Sea Pelagic. I have felt it also and do not take going to Sea lightly. I'm sure your friends did not either, rather they used their best judgement and information they had at the time and trusted the wrong boat to encounter said storm. It appears other boats with (possibly) less skilled seamen aboard survived.

Going to Sea is a crap shoot on the best of days, going when imminent danger exists is the riskiest of businesses.
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Old 20-10-2015, 21:17   #36
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Re: Possible loss of sv Europa"?

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The following is conjecture. However, it is in part based on my personal experience and two demastings. (One due to over compression of mast and too tight rigging, and one from failure of fitting rated at 22,000 lbs)

#1 As much as we may think a 60 foot vessel is big and capable, the fact remains it is a small craft. Anything 65 foot and below is classed small craft.

#2 I would not expect the 90 foot tall mast to have survived the winds they would have seen. This was a production monohull with a tall slender mast held in column under high tension. The cross section is not like a big rotating mast. Therefore demasting likely was first.

#3 It is likely at this point they set the EPIRB and they then tried to cast the mast into the sea.

#4 One of three events is likely:
a. A broken mast section hulled the vessel.
b. A chain plate, when pulled the wrong way, pulled out a section of hull.
c. The mast damaged the prop and/or rudder.

#5 If the 90 foot mast dropped onto the deck there is a good chance it damaged any life raft.

#6 Without a mast, and with possible water coming in, the vessel was a sitting duck for high waves. (In my case, waves were not an issue since my vessel is 40ft wide and not just 16ft. Further I was caught only in a tiny 50 knot squal that was gone within minutes and not a typhoon.)

If a sailboat is going to be out in Pacific size storms during typhoon season it should survive even if demasted. That is how we must classify a vessel as seaworthy. No sailor I known considers a single masted Beneteau to be seaworthy.

Now lets define seaworthy:

In the event of a demasting, and all hell up top, is it safe to sit below while the mast thrashes against the hull and deck?

A. Will the hull withstand being bashed by spreader bars, broken boom etc. ? or
B. If hulled, can she remain afloat? or
C. Will she turn turtle and remain afloat.

Many wooden, steel hull, and ferro cement boats pass test A.
Some composite and some wooden boats pass test B.
Many cats and tri pass test C and the mast didnt break or simple hangs from below.


In all these cases, it is usually safe for the crew to remain below after demasting and wait for the storm to blow over.

(My vessel passes all three tests. I never was in any danger with a huge mast bashing the hull of my boat. Why? It is a trimaran and would remain afloat even if hulled in a single ama. In fact it still floats if hulled in every single compartment. I havent tried test C. )

The design problem for the Beneteau begins with a fiberglass hull that must remain water tight to remain afloat. It can easly be hulled by the mast. That is why we call it a coastal cruising yacht. It should never venture into seas where it can get hit by a major storm. After demasting the crew have only a short time to drop that mast into the deep.

Recommendations:
#1 Know your vessel limitations.
#2 Assume worst case storms can hit.
#3 Follow weather and heed warnings.
#4 Sailing crew may add risk if they pressure the captain to sail in hazardous conditions to meet their deadlines. (Ahem...)
#5 Fiberglass monohulls need to be able to cut a mast free in seconds. Strongly advise Dyneema rigging that any kitchen bread knife can cut in seconds.
#6 Sail with large pieces of plywood. (I have given away plywood twice to boats needing emergency mending.)
#7 Protect life raft.
I found all of your posts on this topic very informative, Thank You.
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Old 21-10-2015, 08:57   #37
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Re: Possible loss of sv Europa"?

Pelagic,

Terribly sorry to hear of the loss of this boat with your friends.

These last few years have been bad. This year especially bad with typhoons in the Pacific.

We sail when we think its right but sometimes nature tricks us.

Mark
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Old 21-10-2015, 18:21   #38
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Re: Possible loss of sv Europa"?

Thanks Mark
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Old 21-10-2015, 18:36   #39
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pirate Re: Possible loss of sv Europa"?

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Pelagic,

Terribly sorry to hear of the loss of this boat with your friends.

These last few years have been bad. This year especially bad with typhoons in the Pacific.

We sail when we think its right but sometimes nature tricks us.

Mark
Wot MarkJ said...
However... lets face the facts.. most of us push our luck sometimes.
And just now and then we fall.. badly.
This is just another reminder to all those 'cool sailors' out there.. its a 50/50 existence..
Just coz ya made it yesterday.. tomorrows another day..
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Old 01-11-2015, 07:32   #40
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Because the Owner Was a Well Known Cat Sailor of ...

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I'm not sure why this is in the multihulls forum. The boat was a Beneteau Oceanis 60.
... a local boat which, apparently, he sold in order to buy the new mono hull in HK . As noted above, he was sailing her back when tragedy struck.

Makes you pause ... no?
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Old 01-11-2015, 07:45   #41
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Re: Possible loss of sv Europa"?

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Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
...

The design problem for the Beneteau begins with a fiberglass hull that must remain water tight to remain afloat. It can easly be hulled by the mast. That is why we call it a coastal cruising yacht. It should never venture into seas where it can get hit by a major storm. After demasting the crew have only a short time to drop that mast into the deep.

...
I liked the rest of your post a great deal, and am no particular fan of Beneteaus, but this seems to suggest that no fiberglass monohull is anything but a coastal vessel. With this I would strongly disagree. Apart from the fact that many can survive a long battering, it is possible to carry very effective rig cutting equipment, whether hydraulic, electric or air driven, or as my preference, all three.
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Old 02-11-2015, 03:57   #42
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Re: Possible loss of sv Europa"?

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Analysis of sailing and storm.

The purpose here is to learn.

I beg to differ with Pelagic regarding "reasonable expectation".

As a fellow sailor in the Philippines I watched this storm closely from first formation and I had every expectation it would be a typhoon that would pass through the Philippines and eventually hit China.

I even had the satellite image saved on my phone. So this image on Oct 1, 2015 is what Robin must have seen when leaving Hong Kong. He was headed right towards TD 22W.

The sailing was in the middle of the typhoon season. Further, the typhoon reason in the area is very long and typhoons tend to follow tracks. Early storms tend to approach Philippines but then steer North. Mid-season storms tend to head West and get more and more South later in the season. Just a few days before the sailing a different Cat 4 typhoon named Dujuan had just made a track through Taiwan and then China.

It was logical to expect typhoons after Dujuan would tend to travel a more Southerly route. This means going through the Philippines.
This was certainly the case with a later-season typhoon by the name of "Yolanda", and we all know what happened as a result.

Scary stuff.

G2L2
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:25   #43
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Indeed; a risk even in a "safe harbor"

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I found these graphs on Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015...typhoon_season

There is a summary for each year and specific pages for big storms


Also see the page Accumulated Cyclone Energy (ACE)

The total energy of Pacific storms is already 3rd highest since records and season is not over.
Your comments above were echoed by another experienced sailor at a recent meeting of members and boat owners, which was called by the SBYC management. The member in question was trying to get the club administrators take note of these record breaking conditions and to fix the darn docks so they might be able to withstand a real storm.

We were able to withstand the latest storm, weathering approximately 55 knot winds and perhaps some even stronger gusts. That storm tore up certain portions of certain pontoons. No telling what a full-on storm might do.

Very informative reading.

Thanks,

G2L2
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:44   #44
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Re: Possible loss of sv Europa"?

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, gone2long2.

Are you associated with G2L?
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:59   #45
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On Yolanda and Related Risks

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Malbert
Yes I have experienced a Cat 5, and the eye struck within 50 km. It was Yolanda Fall 2013. I was not sailing. This my whole point. I, and my crew, were not even aboard. We were in a concrete school building high above sea level. That is the proper place to weather these kind of storms. 14 lines secured me to shore. 4 of them were chains.

I have every confidence my vessel will save my life in a full Cat 5 if I became caught in one. If caught, I don't expect to have a pilot house and may lose the mast.

CSY Man...yes I intend to remain careful and most respectful of these typhoons. It is fairly clear from historical records when the low season is for typhoons. Those are the times I tend to travel.
See my related post further up the thread. We have relatives in Giuan, where the storm made landfall. They had a concrete house in one of the less exposed areas of town but still had it knocked over by storm surge.

Probably sailing a tri south in January, and have been warned by at least one senior poster on this thread regarding conditions to be wary of. Would appreciate your perspective as well, and will PM you with the details.

Keep on,

G2L2
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