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Old 16-09-2016, 03:22   #226
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
I read goboatingnow's criticism of what I wrote back in 2013, and went and googled the prowords. I'm thinking that means pro for protocol.
Actually , it's "pro" for "procedure". As in Radio Procedure.

Quote:
What I discovered, was that the correct pronunciation was written "p" followed by an "a" and an "e", elided together the way the ae in anaesthetic is in British English, followed by an "n".

Now, I found that confusing, because I'm used to hearing that "ae" as a "long" e. And I don't know what goboatingnow meant by a "hard 'a'". Maybe a "long " "a".

Still, if you use the apple "a", everyone will know what you meant to be saying, at least in the US and across the Pacific.

Ann
The elided æ is not the same as "ae"/ It is a symbol in the "Received Pronunciation" system and is described by the Oxford English Dictionary as a short "a" as in cat /kæt

I use that pronunciation, although I am willing to go along with "pahn".

I personally thing that the "pawn" variety sounds like a ridiculous affectation.
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Old 16-09-2016, 03:42   #227
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
......

The elided æ is not the same as "ae"/ It is a symbol in the "Received Pronunciation" system and is described by the Oxford English Dictionary as a short "a" as in cat /kæt
........
I'm going to make up a crib sheet to hang by the radio... wouldn't want the crew to stuff up their radio prodigal or whatever 'in extremis' ... that's when 'the poo hits the fan' for the rest of youse...
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Old 16-09-2016, 08:28   #228
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

The a in apple and the a in ask sound the same to me...
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Old 16-09-2016, 08:58   #229
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

pan, like bread in spanish, as opposed to pan, like what ye fry in.
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Old 16-09-2016, 09:24   #230
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
The a in apple and the a in ask sound the same to me...
More like "pah-ne"
than pAn...
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Old 16-09-2016, 11:59   #231
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

I get broadcasts from both the USCG and the CCG where I am. The USCG say 'pon pon' and the CCG say 'pan pan'

Actually, I have another question. If I was boatin' around one day and I saw a small boat overturned with people in the water, what would I broadcast as I headed over to help?

Would it be a MAYDAY, or a MAYDAY RELAY on behalf of the other boat? Or a PAN PAN as it's not actually me that's in the water or sinking? (around here the people in the water is a major problem as you get hypothermia after 5-10 mins)
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Old 16-09-2016, 15:07   #232
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

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Originally Posted by alctel View Post
I get broadcasts from both the USCG and the CCG where I am. The USCG say 'pon pon' and the CCG say 'pan pan'

Actually, I have another question. If I was boatin' around one day and I saw a small boat overturned with people in the water, what would I broadcast as I headed over to help?

Would it be a MAYDAY, or a MAYDAY RELAY on behalf of the other boat? Or a PAN PAN as it's not actually me that's in the water or sinking? (around here the people in the water is a major problem as you get hypothermia after 5-10 mins)
Alctel,

Mayday, because immediate loss of life (or property) is threatened. When you report the "nature of the distress" part, you clarify that it is not your vessel, but there are people in the water, expect that they will lead you through the process.

But obviously, if it is more important to get them aboard and dry, then don't mess with the radio at all, saving them must be the priority. If you can't get them aboard soon enough, and 5-10 minutes is a very short time, then Mayday it, and ask for that help. You may be the only resource. Tough one. Good one to try and get the local coasties opinion on. Afterwards, just call 'em and tell them what has happened. Unless you've someone with you, you're going to be leaving their boat adrift, and it's a hazard to navigation. You may need to request assistance if you can't warm them up with what you have to hand....

Ann

PS. Stu, thanks for the clarification.relative to pro words. Here's a nit to pick, though, is not a formal procedure a protocol as well???? Ironic, eh?
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Old 16-09-2016, 15:18   #233
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
The a in apple and the a in ask sound the same to me...

And of course, if you're around Kiwis, they sound like epple (bordering on "ipple") and arsk.
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Old 16-09-2016, 15:21   #234
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
PS. Stu, thanks for the clarification.relative to pro words. Here's a nit to pick, though, is not a formal procedure a protocol as well???? Ironic, eh?
Yes it is, but in the military etc, the subject is taught as "Radio Procedure".
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Old 16-09-2016, 18:01   #235
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

What is the correct way to pronounce "Stephen" ? Most of the guys with that name think it is Steven. Nope, not the same name, illiterate neonatal nurse or midwife at fault. And anyone from a Spanish heritage can tell you it is "estephen" emphasis on the intial "E" invisible but eternal before an initial "S". Really, if someone on the radio can't figure out what you mean when they hear the triple "pone pone pone" or "pwon pwon pwon"....you may not want them to respond anyhow.
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Old 16-09-2016, 18:42   #236
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Yes it is, but in the military etc, the subject is taught as "Radio Procedure".
StuM is on the money: the US military and its allies used the form "proword" in the 1940s (at least by 1945) and it was explicitly and clearly used as an abbreviated replacement for "procedure word".


Before that, military radiotelegraphy and radiotelephony (and probably civil radiotelegraphy too) used the term "prosign" as a short form of "procedure signal".


And there was a clear distinction between prosigns or procedure signals and "operating signals" - the latter being the housekeeping signals between radiotelegraphy operators (e.g the Q and Z codes).


So pro is short for procedure. Never short for protocol. Different thing entirely.
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Old 05-10-2016, 23:00   #237
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

I have several thoughts - to keep the discussion going....

First, if you are operating the vessel in distress, think your own procedures along the lines a pilot once told me (in priority order)

#1 Aviate - fly the damn plane, if it takes all your effort to do so, then just fly the plane, all else is secondary..

#2 Navigate - work out where you are, work out where the nearest safe place to get off the plane is then work on flying there, repeat rule 1 then all else is tertiary.

#3 communicate - tell your problem to the world just in case someone can help, procedure is great and helpful, but if #1 and #2 get in the way of proper communications procedure then so be it. (and in emergency situations, it becomes obvious who does the most training, and in an emergency situation, you revert to your training.... a military type calling a mayday will usually sound calm and be very close to proper procedure, a professional aviator will be a close second, but you will notice the apparent stress in their voice and occasional missed words etc. whereas mr I got my license from a wheeties box will be all panic, calling on the wrong channel using wrong words and syntax.


On the other hand, if you hear an aparrent distress call on the radio - do you critique the radio procedure, or do you do what you can to help?

consider this, all three emergency pro-words were chosen for a reason - and that reason is NOT how well any individual can pronounce them, that reason is the same reason as the phonetic alphabet, every proword is easily recognised even on a poor radio signal, even with poor pronunciation, even if its not your native language. - Pan Pan, Pon Pon, Pin Pin, Pun Pun (or anything that "sounds like"), it doesnt matter, they will all get the same response from me and for that matter from the authorities..... same goes for mayday or securite.... anything that "sounds like" is treated the same way..... also think about some lowlife prankster before a judge "but your honour, I never said 'mayday mayday mayday', I was foolin with me mates and said 'gayday gayday gayday', why should I have to cover the coastguards costs?"

also consider - visual distress signals... flares are obvious, as is orange smoke or green sea dye..... the orange "v sheet" that aussie rules call for, if you have one, use it, but if you dont have one, improvise, because ANYTHING that "looks like" a v sheet is suposed to be treated like one. there is no "right way up" for a v sheet, if it looks like a black ^ on an orange background, its still a v sheet.

a person standing on deck waving arms up and down is another identifier of distress, and ANYTHING that "looks like" is supposed to be investigated.

hoisted dayshapes of a square over a ball, or a ball over a square, or anything that "looks like"dayshapes of a ball over a square or a square over a ball, should be investigated.

dont get too hung up on pronunciation, or procedure, or what an aparrent distress signal might look like, act first.

but practice your procedure lots (but NOT into a hot microphone!) but include in your practice procedures what actions you will take and when. unintended flooding for example, when will you check the bilges, when will you close your seacocks, when will you send distress calls, when will you abandon ship - what will you attempt to take with you?
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Old 06-10-2016, 00:07   #238
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

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Its funny that the USCG mispronounces it!

The only place in the world and they have to claim they are right instead of correcting themselves.
My sister in-law was a USCG radio operator at various stations including very busy one's like Governor's Island. They not only have a specific pronunciation for declaring emergency calls but also for numerics. Designed to make reception understood in static filled calls or poor reception without need for repetition.

I'm all for declaring a Pan Pan in the manner of the people most likely in the region I am sailing in that will come to my rescue-The Coasties. Right or wrong pronunciation I do not care about as long as THEY understand me.

I also kept my boat name to a two-syllable name that helps aid in the percentages that my calls are understood first time around. You might not get a second chance to make the call understood on the receiving side. That's all I'm saying
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Old 06-10-2016, 03:25   #239
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

excellent info on emergency procedures. Outstanding.

I also added in when instructing sailing and power boat safety

know your position in lat and lon , and know coastal navigation,,, I heard a may day off the calif coast between catalina and the southern calif coast. When the coasties asked the boaters position, the boater replied, ' I don't know... my GPS is not working.

I also suggested that they note their position on the chart and in the log, every hour or course change along with heading and speed. That can vary with the length of the passage,

Should something happen to the skipper, ,crew or passenger could report that pos, heading and speed and the coasties or other boaters could plot out a DR pos.

Also, i would have them add in their CF- registration number or documentation number ,,,,,to identify an actual emergency situation, and not some prankster.

Could not agree more with the original post...as to flying...I was also a professional pilot and CFI.

Aviate...FLY THE AIR PLANE no matter what else is happening.
NAVIGATE
COMMUNICATE

Thanks to the harbies, the coasties, and other boaters who have come to the rescue.

Also recommended a plastic covered radio procedure guide, that a skipper, or crew or passenger could refer to.

Also stressed the most important thing on board was a knowledgeable skipper and crew.
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Old 06-10-2016, 14:48   #240
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Re: PAN PAN....OR PON PON

mickt243,
Rather than keep the discussion open with your post, I submit it is the end of the thread, as in "Nuff said!"

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