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Old 24-06-2014, 09:24   #16
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
I would like to address why we suggest smaller boats at first and lakes. Its not to keep you off the ocean for our own use. There is plenty of space out in the ocean, and when I see another sailor I usually try to hail them on the VHF or wave merrily. It happens so rarely up here...
No, the reasons we suggest learning on a dingy:
1. You learn to rely on the sail and not the motor.
2. You learn really quickly what works and what doesn't.
3. You can do stupid moves and nobody cares.
4. It rarely costs much. I picked up my first dingy (sail and all) for 20 dollars. My last one cost 700. (a laser)
5. Maintenance is almost nonexistent.
6.If sailing is not your cup of tea, you learn without costing you a lot of bread.
In other words, we are just trying to save you time and money...This is for the next person who asks...
Can I learn to sail on a 50 foot Oyster?


I would counter this. Dinghy sailing teaches you to sail dinghies, large boat sailing is more about travelling to places, navigation, learning to "live" on and with the boat.

The actual art of "basic " sail trim, etc can be picked up quite quickly by anyone interested enough. Sailing a laser, will never prepare you for a heavy weather ocean crossing.

The best way to learn to sail, is to do it often, on a dinghy or a 50ft Oyster , its doesn't really matter, but you do need to understand the difference. If you intend to sail a 30-40 footer, then I suggest you learn on that platform.


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Old 24-06-2014, 13:07   #17
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

Before committing any real money in a boat, I suggest to check that one isn't incapacitated by seasickness.

In the beginning of seasickness, one is afraid of dying. Later, one is afraid of *not* dying... A friend told me that she was so sick once, she thought of jumping overboard to end her misery.

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Old 25-06-2014, 12:38   #18
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

There are a lot of people that say you should just buy the boat you want and get lessons, hire a captain, etc...
That's OK I guess. But you really miss out on a lot.
Being a good sailor before learning seamanship enriches your experience. Let me give you a case in point:
We were taking the ASA courses in Kemah, Texas. My wife and I were with about 6 other nobs to big boats. I had raced dingies and small J boats. We were just into the bay when one of the sheets wrapped the prop. The instructor, after having a break, said we needed to call sea tow. Having sweeps and a favorable wind, I convinced him to sail in. 30 minutes later we were at the dock.
Now I am not some kind of magic sailor, I was just used to solving problems with just the wind. It is a different approach than big boat sailing. IMHO, a better one.
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Old 25-06-2014, 12:49   #19
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pirate Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
There are a lot of people that say you should just buy the boat you want and get lessons, hire a captain, etc...
That's OK I guess. But you really miss out on a lot.
Being a good sailor before learning seamanship enriches your experience. Let me give you a case in point:
We were taking the ASA courses in Kemah, Texas. My wife and I were with about 6 other nobs to big boats. I had raced dingies and small J boats. We were just into the bay when one of the sheets wrapped the prop. The instructor, after having a break, said we needed to call sea tow. Having sweeps and a favorable wind, I convinced him to sail in. 30 minutes later we were at the dock.
Now I am not some kind of magic sailor, I was just used to solving problems with just the wind. It is a different approach than big boat sailing. IMHO, a better one.
Pretty crap instructor.. don't tell me you went back for more..
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Old 25-06-2014, 15:12   #20
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

Pretty typical of ”bareboat" schools over here boaty. Now some are good, but have not been generally impressed. But that is off topic. The reasons I like people to learn in small boats are clear.
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Old 25-06-2014, 15:42   #21
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

Maybe I can address another topic: It's the sailor that makes the voyage and is responsible for his own safety.
In modern society it seems like someone else is responsible for everything. Your safety, food and shelter all come in part from others. If you want to travel, you get in your car and go, getting supplies at very convenient stores along the way. If something breaks you call AAA.
Sailors, esp those that travel off the beaten path, must provide everything including almost all repairs on your home. This is not relaxing on the beach all the time, but more often sweating in a tight locker trying to screw in a hose clamp while wishing it was not so hot.
So if you don't like repairs, don't buy a big old boat. And if you just want to vacation in the Caribbean, charter or those all inclusive resorts look nice...
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Old 25-06-2014, 18:10   #22
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
Maybe I can address another topic: It's the sailor that makes the voyage and is responsible for his own safety.
In modern society it seems like someone else is responsible for everything. Your safety, food and shelter all come in part from others. If you want to travel, you get in your car and go, getting supplies at very convenient stores along the way. If something breaks you call AAA.
Sailors, esp those that travel off the beaten path, must provide everything including almost all repairs on your home. This is not relaxing on the beach all the time, but more often sweating in a tight locker trying to screw in a hose clamp while wishing it was not so hot.
So if you don't like repairs, don't buy a big old boat. And if you just want to vacation in the Caribbean, charter or those all inclusive resorts look nice...
Newt - I applaud you idea to start the definitive thread for learning to be a cruiser but unfortunately it is a "fool's errand"

The forum has 1.5 million posts (and counting) there are 118 thousand threads.

If we all agreed there would be 118 thousand of each because there would be no disagreement -

"Start in a dinghy" - Yup, nailed it. We all agree.
"The minimum sized boat for passage making is 36 feet" - Yup nailed it!

Anyway you get the idea. Your first post has many opinions. Some of which I disagree with. But there are tons of how to learn to sail threads so if I challenge any of your opinions I would be trying to convert you to another religion, and I am not even sure my religion is 100% right.

This forum will repeat threads over and over and over. Some of the best threads become stickies and some folks bookmark their favorites and say, "It's already covered. Read this"

Anyway this is a forum not a marina - there are no boats here and people come here for all kinds of reasons. 90% are lookie-Lous that will never sail.

The first advice most people give is go to your local Marina and take a lesson. How many actually do that? Like 10%? How many of that 10% take more lessons? How many become sailors 1%?

Sailing is not like many other hobbies/vocations/lifestyles. I used to dirt bike. Store the bikes all winter, First sunny day load the cooler hook up the trailer and go trail riding.

Boats aren't like that. They are trying to kill themselves continuously. You need to constantly interact with your boat and integrate it into your lifestyle. There are many barnacle collectors here. The owner's life changed and they forgot the boat and now the boat is deteriorated and they can't sell it for what they perceive is the value.

In this regard boats are more like pets.

Anytway - Way off -topic. In a couple of pages your thread is getting confused by differing opinions. You'd be better off building a blog and then point every newbie to your blog on how you think people should learn to sail.
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Old 25-06-2014, 18:22   #23
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

I can't agree with a 36' boat as being the minimum size for passage making. I think history would prove that to be way wrong. What I would stress is the more systems on your boat the more time you'll spend fixing those systems and not enjoying your surroundings.


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Old 25-06-2014, 20:32   #24
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

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What I would stress is the more systems on your boat the more time you'll spend fixing those systems and not enjoying your surroundings.
Another look at this is that the more systems on your boat, the more those systems will enrich your cruising experience... cold beer, fresh fruit, electric lighting, plumbing that works... and so on.

The secret is balancing the repairs against the enjoyment. After 28 years of cruising we are homing in on the ideal. With luck, we will get there before we fall off of our perches!

Newt, I really think you have started pushing a big rock up a steep hill...

Good luck,

Jim

PS the trouble is that the ideal keeps changing as we get older...
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Old 25-06-2014, 20:47   #25
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

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Another look at this is that the more systems on your boat, the more those systems will enrich your cruising experience... cold beer, fresh fruit, electric lighting, plumbing that works... and so on.

The secret is balancing the repairs against the enjoyment. After 28 years of cruising we are homing in on the ideal. With luck, we will get there before we fall off of our perches!

Newt, I really think you have started pushing a big rock up a steep hill...

Good luck,

Jim

PS the trouble is that the ideal keeps changing as we get older...

No doubt it's all about personal preference. You have to balance the necessities that you feel you need and the time and money needed to keep them up.


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Old 26-06-2014, 10:38   #26
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

You know I have thought a lot along the lines of what you guys have said, and you are absolutely right. I do need a blog, and CF is just too big to have this type of conversation. I had to laugh when Ex-Cal gave an example of something that someone might disagree with and ...next post disagreed with him.
Too funny.
Any ideas for a good place (safe harbour) for a sailor to blog at?
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Old 26-06-2014, 16:51   #27
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
You know I have thought a lot along the lines of what you guys have said, and you are absolutely right. I do need a blog, and CF is just too big to have this type of conversation. I had to laugh when Ex-Cal gave an example of something that someone might disagree with and ...next post disagreed with him.
Too funny.
Any ideas for a good place (safe harbour) for a sailor to blog at?
I really think there is a place for it.

I have been thinking about a blog called "Starter Boat" - I have had my boat for 7 years. I bought it specifically as a starter and learner boat. I sailed as a kid but really got into this stuff in 2007 and bought this boat so I can learn to sail properly and have a boat that I can maintain, upgrade and learn on. Along the way I have crewed on big race boats, little race boats and came in third in the J24 nationals. I have made passages and so on.

I have done a crap load of maintenance and for 5 years kept a detailed expense log and have all that data. I had a partnership and know how that works. My partnership fell apart so I know how partnerships don't work, too.

I wouldn't say that they way I am doing it is the way it has to be done but it has worked and some may find it useful. But a blog is a real commitment and to do it right is way more time then I have to invest right now.
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Old 26-06-2014, 18:59   #28
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

Wordpress seems okay. I have a small blog that I hardly ever update on Wordpress.
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Old 28-06-2014, 13:19   #29
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

As a example for #1 4 or 5 years ago a couple of college kids with a 16' to 18' went out sailing on Millford lake in Kansas. It was early spring I don't remember the details whether the boat swamped or turned turtle or what, they found both one had a pfd on. If the had waited 6 weeks to go out the water would of been warmer and there likely would of been fishing boats nearby and the worst that would of happened is they got wet and had to bail out their boat. The water anywhere will kill you if your stupid enough to let it sometimes even if your a genius.


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Old 28-06-2014, 15:27   #30
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Re: New Sailor's guide to Ocean work.

newt,

I imagine that you would write a discreet blog. I understand the desire to help the newbies along, and some of them are on the steepest part of the learning curve.

Perhaps a book, might be a better venue?

Good luck with it.

Ann
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