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Old 13-05-2018, 05:36   #1
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New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

After putting an offer on a 1980 Corbin 39 that had recently been painted the surveyor tells me that the deck is 80 percent wet.
The owner and broker tell me that the deck is fine and that false moisture readings occur due to recent paint. Entire boat repainted also new Awlgrip on the decks.
I am meeting with the owner, broker and the company that painted the boat next week.
Any advice ,help would be greatly appreciated
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Old 13-05-2018, 13:02   #2
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

You might want to call the nice folks at Awlgrip and ask them if they've ever heard of this. Be charitable, if they guffaw with laughter. If they say this is a real thing...there's still no harm in asking the owner, broker, and painter if they'll all sign a statement that to the best of their knowledge, there were no moisture problems or other structural and functional problems concealed by the painting. (Don't hold your breath.)
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Old 13-05-2018, 14:32   #3
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

If there is moisture in 80% of the deck it should be spongy to walk on or resonate when hit with a rubber mallet. With that large an area of moisture the core should have long since turned to mush. Moisture meters aren't a bad idea but often give false readings or just pinpoint hardware that needs to be rebedded.
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Old 13-05-2018, 15:19   #4
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

Thank you for this
I'll have a closer look this coming weekend
It's such a nice boat. It would break my heart to let it go.
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Old 13-05-2018, 15:22   #5
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

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Originally Posted by mike toynton View Post
After putting an offer on a 1980 Corbin 39 that had recently been painted the surveyor tells me that the deck is 80 percent wet.
The owner and broker tell me that the deck is fine and that false moisture readings occur due to recent paint. Entire boat repainted also new Awlgrip on the decks.
I am meeting with the owner, broker and the company that painted the boat next week.
Any advice ,help would be greatly appreciated
80% wet... not exactly sure what that means. Most moisture meters don't read that way because they have no way of knowing 80% of WHAT?

If that reading was what he found everywhere he pointed the meter, that would be very strange. Did he take that reading up from inside the hull or down from outside?

I assume the deck is cored? If it has that much water in it it will be easy to know just a simple tap test. Instead of going "dink" it will go "dunk"

Did the surveyor do that? Run over the boat tap-tap-tapping with his plastic mallet? If he did not, and counts only on the moisture meter... he wasn't worth his fee.
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Old 13-05-2018, 15:54   #6
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

I couldn't be there for the survey , however I've used this guy before and he is a reliable chap.
I'll be speaking with him soon. Thanks
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Old 13-05-2018, 17:48   #7
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

I had a boat with a painted deck with Brightside that I was selling and I asked a guy to come check it with a moisture meter as many of the same type of boat have had deck moisture. He found the entire foredeck was wet. It had rained the night before but it looked dry. A few months later on the survey the same meter in the hands of a different person showed that the deck was fine and had no moisture. Was it the meter? Was it the rain? I will never know but it certainly changes your thoughts on the value of the boat when it happens.

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Old 13-05-2018, 18:57   #8
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

Thanks for this
Short of drilling holes in the deck it’s hard to get to the truth
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Old 14-05-2018, 10:41   #9
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike toynton View Post
After putting an offer on a 1980 Corbin 39 that had recently been painted the surveyor tells me that the deck is 80 percent wet.
The owner and broker tell me that the deck is fine and that false moisture readings occur due to recent paint. Entire boat repainted also new Awlgrip on the decks.
I am meeting with the owner, broker and the company that painted the boat next week.
Any advice ,help would be greatly appreciated
OK, lets look at this logically.

Q1: Is a 38 year old boat likely to be in “Perfect” condition.

A1: No.

Q2: Why has the deck of a 38 year old boat been painted?

A2: Because it was deteriorated or had some repairs completed, and someone chose paint over gelcoat. (Bad idea IMHO, but quite common.)

Q3: What is the likely hood a 38 year old boat, without prior core repair, has a high moisture reading somewhere in the deck?

Q4: Since most bedding materials hav a life expectancy of 15 +/- 5 years, and few boats have resin potted deck fitting mounting holes, from the factory, and few owners within 10 years of purchase, remove all deck fittings, resin pot the mounting holes, and rebed the fittings, very highly likely.

Q5: Does a high moisture reading necessarily mean that there is core rot or delamination and the boat should be passed on, if all else is good?

A5: Not normally. A deck can have moisture in it (in fact most over 20 years old do) and can be perfectly sound. If the issue is caught early and moisture ingress stopped before core damage occurs, it may live forever like that and be perfectly fine.

Even if there is some core damage that requires repair, on. 38 year old boat, this is not too surprising.

If one had 2 absolutely identical boats, one with low deck readings and one with high, everything else equal, I would choose the one with low.

One important question to ask is how large is the wet area?

Radiating 3” from a deck fitting is a minor repair that takes a coulple hours. Both side and gore decks and entire coach roof, that’s a completely different story.

Q6: Is cured Awlgrip electrically conductive, such that it may fool a moisture meter?

A6: Most colours, especially a shade of white, NO. Some colours and all metallics, YES.

My recommendation?

Listen to the surveyor. If less than 100% confident in their competence, make your offer conditional on inspection by a Marine Fibreglass composite expert.

A small wet section of sound deck, shouldn’t necessarily quash a deal. It should result in a FMV price reduction, everything else equal, amount dependent on size and severity.
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Old 14-05-2018, 10:48   #10
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

As I have a moiture meter I can ascertain that they can be tricky to use.

Was the base moisture content measured on a dry spot first...etc etc...
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Old 14-05-2018, 13:34   #11
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

[QUOTE=ramblinrod;2632253]OK, lets look at this logically.

Q1: Is a 38 year old boat likely to be in “Perfect” condition.

A1: No.

Q3: What is the likely hood a 38 year old boat, without prior core repair, has a high moisture reading somewhere in the deck?

Q4: Since most bedding materials hav a life expectancy of 15 +/- 5 years, and few boats have resin potted deck fitting mounting holes, from the factory, and few owners within 10 years of purchase, remove all deck fittings, resin pot the mounting holes, and rebed the fittings, very highly likely.

I've pulled up stuff bedded with Life Caulk after 40 years on a roof and it was still doing it's job. Still pliable and firmly attached to the part and the substrate. Maybe some of the newer caulks have a short life but doesn't seem to be the case for LifeCaulk. Yes it can fail because of movement of the part or fastener but not because it's 'old'.
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Old 14-05-2018, 13:46   #12
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

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I've pulled up stuff bedded with Life Caulk after 40 years on a roof and it was still doing it's job. Still pliable and firmly attached to the part and the substrate. Maybe some of the newer caulks have a short life but doesn't seem to be the case for LifeCaulk. Yes it can fail because of movement of the part or fastener but not because it's 'old'.
Of course some bedding compound will be present.

But life expectancy is related to performing intended function under application conditions used.

After 15 years of normal use, it is debatable if bedding compound will still be doing its job effectively for the application conditions present.

I’ve seen lots of Butyl filled hull deck seems that still ooze and smear Butyl all over everything in the lockers after 40 years, but the hull/deck seam is leaking like a sieve.
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Old 14-05-2018, 17:58   #13
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

Testing from inside with RF meter on a cored part will corroborate or not. Ask permission for a pin resistive test where it can be filled and not seen.
If not permitted, walk.
Need someone on the meters that has a clue.
If it is wet, walk. Unless you like tedious projects rather than sailing.

Pretty easy to tell if its the awlgrip, consistently 80 where there is AG and should follow the pattern of AG antiskid.
The oddest materials send my meter to scream mode, for instance, butynol with EPDM.
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Old 15-05-2018, 03:01   #14
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

He put 60k into improvements and only wants 100k....hmm? Drill some small holes from inside and check.
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Old 15-05-2018, 03:38   #15
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Re: New Awlgrip causing false moisture readings

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
My recommendation?

Listen to the surveyor. If less than 100% confident in their competence, make your offer conditional on inspection by a Marine Fibreglass composite expert.

A small wet section of sound deck, shouldn’t necessarily quash a deal. It should result in a FMV price reduction, everything else equal, amount dependent on size and severity.
I have to agree with this. We can all hold forth here about the life expectancy of bedding, the likelihood of leaks, etc. but none of us are there holding the meter and observing the results.

In general, I find the idea that someone might have gone through the effort and expense of painting a deck with Awlgrip but not correcting any moisture issues to be pretty unlikely. It just makes no sense. It's a huge costly job even when you do most or all of it yourself. No one would do it to sell a boat as they'd never get their money back.

I just refit my deck, rebedding everything on it and painting with Awlgrip. After 32 years I found one area of water penetration, 6" in diameter. Opened it up and the core was fine. So there are no "universal truths" about what should be true about the deck.
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