Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-04-2013, 09:54   #76
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: St Augustine, FL
Boat: Woods Vardo 34 Cat
Posts: 2,825
Re: Missing Children on Sailboat

Opps, didn't see the above post. Guess they just have another reason to be anti government. Cuba never would have cooperated when Bush was president.
__________________

__________________
Check out my MoJo: Facebook.com/mojomarine1
Boatguy30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 11:49   #77
Registered User
 
Group9's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,599
Images: 7
Re: Missing Children on Sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailcruiser View Post
I hope they get a fair trial.

I was talking to a LEO friend of mine about this case and he said in the last few years it seems like parent(s) with drug convictions (any type) are more likely to keep their kids than a parent(s) with the same or lesser drug charges but own a firearm (legal or not). There isn't any statistical data to back this up but was merely a personal observation. To me this guy seemed less scary (before this latest incident) and had not yet been convicted of the drug charges before losing his kids. I'm not a lawyer but that just doesn't seem fair having a clean history to that point from what reports have said.
SC
We see kids here taken out of meth labs, that go back to the doper parents in a few weeks. A lot of times, it's just not having enough foster parents or any relatives, to put them with.
__________________

__________________
Group9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 12:37   #78
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 31
Re: missing children on sailboat

The "deal" was agreeing to hand them over. According to all news sources I can find:
Cuba and the United States have not had a valid extradition treaty since the early days of the Castro revolution. Havana occasionally deports U.S. common criminals but shelters an estimated 70 U.S. fugitives it views as refugees from political persecution.

Read more here: Cuba returns two U.S. children who were abducted in Tampa - Nation Wires - MiamiHerald.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Cuba didn't "make a deal." Cuba has an extradition treaty with the United States, and we have one with them. The "deal" was made many years ago. Both countries routinely send wanted criminals back to the other when they can. Cuba just did what they have done many times before in honoring the extradition treaty.
__________________
Boatdrinks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 12:51   #79
Registered User
 
svHyLyte's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,428
Images: 25
Re: missing children on sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Cuba didn't "make a deal." Cuba has an extradition treaty with the United States, and we have one with them. The "deal" was made many years ago. Both countries routinely send wanted criminals back to the other when they can. Cuba just did what they have done many times before in honoring the extradition treaty.
Ah... Don, there is no Extradition Treaty between Cuba and the US. The countries sometimes cooperate, but usually only when there is substantial public interest and one or the other tends to gain Propaganda value from such a transaction or exchange--usually Cuba. Cuban's that make US soil are virtually never repatriated to Cuba involuntarily unless they are known to be criminals and even then it is difficult because, often, the Cuban government doesn't want them back. The Muriel Boat Lift was a classic example of Cuban authorities cleaning out the felons in their prisons and shipping them off to the US. That created major problems for law enforcement in south Florida as many were particularly violent.

As to the matter of this particular case, given the evidence of the father's judgement by his behaviors, the children are certainly better off with their grand parents. If children have been removed from a parent's custody unjustly, there are legal means by which custody can be regained and no shortage of advocates that will provide the assistance needed on a pro-bono basis. The mere fact that this fellow thought he could avoid the police by fleeing to a police state is certainly evidence of his poor judgement regardless of how well he might have handled the boat by which means he did so.

Frankly, I find it astonishing that he could have traversed the distance from north of Tampa down to and past Key West without being detected. But, he did have quite a few hours head start and made much of his passage off-shore at night and the boat is small enough that its radar signature would have been quite low and traveling without lights it would have been very difficult to find in the dark, even with IR. (That should be a cautionary tale to those traveling without signal devices eh?)
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
svHyLyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 13:04   #80
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: sailing south
Boat: Ericson 35-2
Posts: 313
Re: missing children on sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Cuba didn't "make a deal." Cuba has an extradition treaty with the United States
If they wanted to, they could circumvent the treaty easily. (1) instruction to the port authority and police to give the guy a visa and let him file for asylum; (2) a phone call to the judge, saying "ola, companero, there is an opinion that your case is a political refugee".

You can rest assured that someone in Havana made a political decision to deport them instead. Judging by how little time it took, there was no negotiation though.
__________________
RedHerring is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 13:06   #81
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Re: missing children on sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
As to the matter of this particular case, given the evidence of the father's judgement by his behaviors, the children are certainly better off with their grand parents.

If children have been removed from a parent's custody unjustly, there are legal means by which custody can be regained and no shortage of advocates that will provide the assistance needed on a pro-bono basis.
I cant agree with either of these statements. We are making judgements based on media evidence that has already been proven to be suspect. The evidence presented about this couple's history and behaviour has been rescinded and corrected twice. As another poster said - if every parent who had a gun in their possession was declared unfit half the nation would be without their kids.

Most importantly i have to disagree with your comment regardin due process and children. It would not be unusual for parents whose children were removed illegally to spend over 2 years in courts trying to get their kids back.

Can you imagine what this does to the children? it is a common issue mainly for underpriveldeged who cant afford the immense legal struggle.

http://www.wcl.american.edu/journal/...11/bullock.pdf

The child services system in the US is very flawed. An individual with a grievance against someone with very little planning and effort can easily use the system to get his target to lose their children and into a legal quandary.

Not saying that these people are ideal parents but it is very clear to me that this is so far from black and white and that the information we have access to has serious spin on it. I dont think the truth is even close to what we can see.
__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 13:18   #82
Registered User
 
svHyLyte's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,428
Images: 25
Re: missing children on sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
I cant agree with either of these statements. We are making judgements based on media evidence that has already been proven to be suspect. The evidence presented about this couple's history and behaviour has been rescinded and corrected twice. As another poster said - if every parent who had a gun in their possession was declared unfit half the nation would be without their kids.

Most importantly i have to disagree with your comment regardin due process and children. It would not be unusual for parents whose children were removed illegally to spend over 2 years in courts trying to get their kids back.

Can you imagine what this does to the children? it is a common issue mainly for underpriveldeged who cant afford the immense legal struggle.

http://www.wcl.american.edu/journal/...11/bullock.pdf

The child services system in the US is very flawed. An individual with a grievance against someone with very little planning and effort can easily use the system to get his target to lose their children and into a legal quandary.

Not saying that these people are ideal parents but it is very clear to me that this is so far from black and white and that the information we have access to has serious spin on it. I dont think the truth is even close to what we can see.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the matter and await the outcome of the judicial proceedings rather then engage in futile debate. I submit, however, that whatever legitimate chances the parents may have deserved or had have now been dramatically lessened if not entirely extinguished by their own actions, no? And that, alone, would seem to cast their judgement into serious question, no?
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
svHyLyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 13:39   #83
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Re: Missing Children on Sailboat

I guess my only real point is that I dont subscribe to the legal axiom that if someone runs that must mean they are guilty.

I have seen too many instances of the legal system gone awry to believe in allowing your fate to be justly handled by "justice".

As a parent of two little ones I would firstly never get my face tattooed and secondly never put myself in a public position that the social services would have a complaint...but that is an aside and is a judgement on a behavior that is not indicative of bad parenting but of something outside my experience base.

I know people who have "survived" the foster system, 2 friends. I would feel pretty aggressive towards anyone that wanted to take my kids from my care and dump them into that system. I am blessed to have the capacity to address this in a legal fashion but if I didnt I can see how the paternal aggression would color my decisions and create the potential for a violent irrational action that I deemed necessary to protect my children.

All said - you are right, we will see it play out. What we see wont be justice as the facts are not at play in the courts any more than they are in the court of public opinion.
__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 14:04   #84
Senior Cruiser
 
Ramblingman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2013
Boat: Chesapeake Light Craft Passagemaker, Tyler Craft T42, and 9' RIB.
Posts: 148
Re: missing children on sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the matter and await the outcome of the judicial proceedings rather then engage in futile debate. I submit, however, that whatever legitimate chances the parents may have deserved or had have now been dramatically lessened if not entirely extinguished by their own actions, no? And that, alone, would seem to cast their judgement into serious question, no?
I have to agree, they only made the situation worse. The government thugs are not going to let them get away with the tertiary behavior. They would have been far better off just taking the initial hit, keeping their mouths shut then when all settled and clear, head for greener pastures.

Still, I can't help but think of how devastated I would be had my children been taken in such a heavy handed manner. Furious is only a light concept. Then again I would not have guns and drugs together around my children.

Something does NOT smell right about this entire thing. It could just be bad reporting, heavy handed government, government ineptness, poor choices by the parents and/or who knows what else. Why have the details changed so many times?

Last - what's gonna happen to the boat?!
__________________
Ramblingman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 22:45   #85
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Missing Children on Sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
I guess my only real point is that I dont subscribe to the legal axiom that if someone runs that must mean they are guilty.

I have seen too many instances of the legal system gone awry to believe in allowing your fate to be justly handled by "justice".

As a parent of two little ones I would firstly never get my face tattooed and secondly never put myself in a public position that the social services would have a complaint...but that is an aside and is a judgement on a behavior that is not indicative of bad parenting but of something outside my experience base.

I know people who have "survived" the foster system, 2 friends. I would feel pretty aggressive towards anyone that wanted to take my kids from my care and dump them into that system. I am blessed to have the capacity to address this in a legal fashion but if I didnt I can see how the paternal aggression would color my decisions and create the potential for a violent irrational action that I deemed necessary to protect my children.

All said - you are right, we will see it play out. What we see wont be justice as the facts are not at play in the courts any more than they are in the court of public opinion.



Too true. When they took his kids he was out of state, he lived in Florida and they gave the kids to a foster family in Louisiana where he was arrested. I would not be OK with that.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 06:04   #86
Registered User
 
denverd0n's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,949
Images: 6
Re: Missing Children on Sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
I know people who have "survived" the foster system...
The kids weren't in the foster system. They were in the custody of their grandparents. There were no visitation restrictions on the parents, meaning they could see the kids any time they wanted. If the custody was taken away from the parents for some bogus reason, all they had to do was find a decent lawyer and work the system, and in the meantime they could see their kids whenever they felt like it.

Now they're only going to see their kids on visitation days. Yeah, real smart parenting.

As for any extradition treaty with Cuba, I guess I'll have to do some research. There was an article in the local newspaper that said we had such a treaty. Of course, that could be completely wrong. It's the sort of little fact that newspapers often do get wrong.

Edit: No, the newspaper was right. State Department website says that we DO have an extradition treaty with Cuba. http://www.state.gov/s/l/treaty/faqs/70138.htm
__________________
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 06:06   #87
Registered User
 
denverd0n's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,949
Images: 6
Re: missing children on sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramblingman View Post
Last - what's gonna happen to the boat?!
It's still in Cuba, where I expect it will stay. Probably become the toy of some middle-level Cuban authority, would be my guess.
__________________
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 06:33   #88
Registered User
 
jeanathon's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: WNC mountains U.S.
Boat: 1968 Hinterhoel Redwing
Posts: 513
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://e...ed=0CC8QygQwAA
Cuba does not make the list. Andorra would be nice, but hard to sail there from ... well anywhere.
__________________
Let's ban together to ban sillycone....
jeanathon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 06:43   #89
Registered User
 
denverd0n's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,949
Images: 6
Re: Missing Children on Sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanathon View Post
Cuba does not make the list.
Sorry, but I think the official website of the United States Department of State trumps some random wiki website. According to the Dept. of State, the U.S. does have an extradition treaty with Cuba.
__________________
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 06:50   #90
Registered User
 
jeanathon's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: WNC mountains U.S.
Boat: 1968 Hinterhoel Redwing
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n
Sorry, but I think the official website of the United States Department of State trumps some random wiki website. According to the Dept. of State, the U.S. does have an extradition treaty with Cuba.
Yes that is what I said. Reading it is a great skill!
To be fair I wouldn't have bothered posting if you had already edited.
__________________

__________________
Let's ban together to ban sillycone....
jeanathon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
children, sailboat

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yet Another Newbie Says Hi kungfoo Meets & Greets 9 24-07-2011 20:54



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:44.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.