Middle class family entry level coastal cruisers, what are they?

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by AJ_n_Audrey

Actually, if you look at the middle federal tax brackets (and most tax brackets) they went down significantly from 1950 to 1980, and again from 1980 to today. In 1980 it was between 32 and 37% for the middle brackets. In 2017, the middle brackets are 25 and 28%. So the real problem is that income for the middle class has been stagnant since 1980.

You're going to have to define "middle class" before you make statements or assumptions.

[redhead]

Superficially I think the "middle class" (whatever that is, I used to know but not anymore) has taken keeping up with the Jones's too far for too long. Since the 50's upwardly mobile was a good thing and we probably all grew up with it to one extent or another. I know, coming from a family of Irish immigrants, upwardly mobile was where the whole neighborhood wanted to go.

But something strange happened. We kept reading the shiny magazines, watching the commercials, lusting after the next new toy and....the economic bubble stuttered and then burst leaving us with all the dreams and the secret expectation that we weren't going to do better than the previous generation.

But the magazines and the commercials were still there - whispering in our ear; our debt climbed but our income didn't.

Now to exacerbate the problem, someone invented computers. And made them small and more recently, affordable. Boy, we really started learning stuff then. Instead of going to the library we could access the info at home. Eventually, we were able to put our computers in our pockets. Wow - and I really mean that. The kids got smarter, life was safer but.....

A funny thing happened. We stopped going to the library, so we stayed in the house. We didn't have to go downtown or to the Mall anymore, we shopped online, so we stayed in the house. We didn't have to go to a friends house to visit, we could do it in a chatroom, or on Skype, or (gasp) on a forum!!! And we didn't have to leave the house.

The art of conversation is weak. "Young'uns" don't see the need to talk to anyone. We are in the house and feel no need to leave to go sail, or tour, or whatever.

All that being said. In this marina there are two types of boats that go out every single week. The racers and the 20'something footers that haven't been painted in 15 years, both of them with that itch to get out there, both of them packed to the gunnel's with grinning people who don't realize they could be home in front of their 'puter.

[rmesfo]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The Middle class is what fueled General Aviation for decades, but it’s all but gone too.
I used to think Aviation just got too expensive, but then after buying a boat and cruising around and seeing hundreds of big motor yachts bellying up to the fuel dock for thousands of dollars of fuel at a pop, I decided it wasn’t a lack of money.

I think it’s just too hard, you can’t stroke a check today and be flying tomorrow, but you can with that Motor Yacht.

If you think about it, there is a tremendous amount of money spent on today’s “essentials” that didn’t even exist not too long ago.
I bet the average bill to watch TV now is $100 a month, then about that for a cell phone, and of course you have to have internet at home.

My belief is people are on average just too lazy, and want instant satisfaction, if it’s hard to do and takes practice, then it’s too hard.

I had my Grandkids living with us for a few years, we lived on a Farm, I bought them motorcycles, and we had two big ole friendly dogs, and a big swimming pool. I bought them good bows to shoot etc.
They only wanted to play video games, you couldn’t get them out of the house, honestly. The bicycles were too hard to ride, forget the dirt bikes.

Average Joe is too lazy to cruise or even to sail

I disagree. Aviation is way too expensive and the current landscape consists of business dudes buying Cirrus and other million buck aircraft to write off against their businesses and old dudes keeping general aviation alive. Go to any fly in and there will hardly be anyone there under 50. There are new pilot starts in aviation but the planes are getting old and expensive to operate. I have owned 5 aircraft, mostly in partnerships, but I have sold my current aircraft. The current sailing community in the bay area is alive and vibrant, lot of old dudes and dudettes but with a lot of young folks (under 50) participating. Also, owning a boat is a hell of a lot more expensive than owning an airplane. I just hope the guvment doesn't screw up sailing like it is doing to general aviation. My two cents.

[Tetepare]

The most recent issue of BoatUS has an article on the topic of why young people aren't into (sail) boats.

But the original post asked about boats, not economics, so let me segue back to the original question.

NOW is the best time for a middle class family to buy a sailboat! NOW is also the least expensive!

Why? Simple. There are thousands of 1970s-1990s boats, PLASTIC low maintenance boats, available at 20% of what they cost new. Beneteau, Hunter, Catalina...a bit older, Sabre, C&C, CS, even Cape Dory.

My Catalina cost $65,000 new (loaded) which is $124,000 today.

I paid $40,000 which is $66,000 today.

I'll sell it for $24,000 today. You can get them cheaper.

Not bad, I think. $24k can buy a lot of boat, and in sail-away condition. There was a Beneteau 36 CC on CF for $49k that didn't sell. And there is a huge inventory of used, proven classic (not antique) boats for under $40k.

[a64pilot]

No, the airplane thing , and the Boat thing are not really about money.
Yes, a new Cirrus is expensive, so is a new Oyster.
But an old Cessna isn’t, and there is the homebuilt route too. Neither is on old Catalina or Hunter or many other fine, good weekend, vacation cruiser boats.
I think there is no desire to buy an old Boat, put some sweat equity into it and go voyaging anymore

[Fence Man]

[
I think there is no desire to buy an old Boat, put some sweat equity into it and go voyaging anymore[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what we plan to do, but work never scared us.

[AJ_n_Audrey]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You're going to have to define "middle class" before you make statements or assumptions.

No assumptions. You can google the federal tax brackets yourself, which is what I did. I said "middle brackets" not middle class.

[JPA Cate]

So, given small dollars for discretionary spending, would you not agree that there is little glamour in sailing an 18 - 26 foot boat these days?

There's adventure this and that for entertainment, but I'm thinking that young people's expectations of fun contain both the glamour element, and speed.

Plus, the "trades" have been disrespected for years. But the "tradies" are the people who know how to do things with their hands....assuming they've learned well.

So, getting into [slow] sailing is not only not glitzy, but more expensive due to the times, and, at a time when people are afraid to work on their own *stuff*, and have learned to not trust marine tradesmen.

I tend to think that there will always be some few humans who want to wander,as there have since pre-history, and that they will find ways, even Shank's Mare, to accomplish that. For some of us, it has been under sail. Sailing has been, since I've been involved, pretty much all professionals of one sort and another, who were -- uncharacteristically -- willing to turn their hands to working men's jobs. It is not an "everyman" sort of deal. To be self-sufficient doesn't seem to be a popular goal these days, and so there's less pull towards sailing as an occupation.

Cruising is glamorized on U-tube, so the experience of it does not meet the expectation. You have to be a pretty down to earth sort of person for it to work out for you as a lifestyle, and it is not easy to pick up after retirement to learn a whole new gestalt of skills and subject your body to unfamiliar stresses.

I can actually see a big spot for small boat activities, but by the time you get to keel boats and inboard engines, you have to have a person with above average intelligence and drive to learn, rather than being distracted by entertainment: to have the courage to seek your own goals and ignore the ones set for you by advertising, and the society at large.

Ann

[ahumbug1]

I am certainly middle class. I finally got back sailing again after 35 years without a boat. I bought an 86 Catalina 34'. The exciting part is my kids are all in and loving it! I have 10 and they range in age form 25 to 45 years. My boys(I have 5 of them) are all wanting to learn how to sail and operate the boat. They cant wait to sail to Catalina with me. Even my grand kids were stoked when I took them out (not all at once, i have 26 of them). New boats are certainly out of reach but sailing will live on in my Middle Class Family.

[Southcoasting]

Originally Posted by AJ_n_Audrey

Actually, if you look at the middle federal tax brackets (and most tax brackets) they went down significantly from 1950 to 1980, and again from 1980 to today. In 1980 it was between 32 and 37% for the middle brackets. In 2017, the middle brackets are 25 and 28%. So the real problem is that income for the middle class has been stagnant since 1980.

Yes, I was going to reply with the same thing but you hit it on the nail...

The middle class has not been taxed more to pay for everybody else...that's the news that some billionaire funded news outlets want you to believe so that we can scapegoat the poor instead of find out the real facts of corporate influence on public policy.

The fact is, inflation has inflated and wages are about the same. Everything costs 3 times more now and wages have barely increased. It used to cost less than a dollar per gallon for fuel, 33-50 cents for a candy bar, corn used to be a dozen for a dollar, and all other foods used to be so much cheaper...you could buy a house for around $100k in decent areas, etc etc....and I'm just talking about the mid 90's...so not too long ago...

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

No, the airplane thing , and the Boat thing are not really about money.
Yes, a new Cirrus is expensive, so is a new Oyster.
But an old Cessna isn’t, and there is the homebuilt route too. Neither is on old Catalina or Hunter or many other fine, good weekend, vacation cruiser boats.
I think there is no desire to buy an old Boat, put some sweat equity into it and go voyaging anymore

A fellow sailor said to me recently" my neighbours buy new cars, they cant afford old ones, the old ones requires they have cash the new car is on finance" maybe some truth in that with boats?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by ahumbug1

I am certainly middle class. I finally got back sailing again after 35 years without a boat. I bought an 86 Catalina 34'. The exciting part is my kids are all in and loving it! I have 10 and they range in age form 25 to 45 years. My boys(I have 5 of them) are all wanting to learn how to sail and operate the boat. They cant wait to sail to Catalina with me. Even my grand kids were stoked when I took them out (not all at once, i have 26 of them). New boats are certainly out of reach but sailing will live on in my Middle Class Family.

10 kids and 26 grand kids!!!!! Wow! you need a bigger boat..lol.

[danielamartindm]

The middle class has definitely shrunk and declined in the last forty years. Wages have simply not risen to match years of inflation and higher costs of living. New vessels are beyond the means of many, and I think most who still dream of the sea strike a balance between newer boat/higher price and older boat/cost to re-fit. Boat ownership, especially for younger Americans, has declined, but they are finding other ways to pursue sailing. There are moderately priced gems out there, it just requires patience and knowledge to find them. And btw, I think Catalinas are a great value, and are capable vessels.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by AJ_n_Audrey

No assumptions. You can google the federal tax brackets yourself, which is what I did. I said "middle brackets" not middle class.

Well then, you weren't responding to my post. Or the question.

[daletournier]

I think there's more boat value out there than ever, but do the "middle class" have the money? Houses are a greater multiple of household income than in the past, kids aren't getting cheap, the dollar used to purchase more and people by alot more little stuff ie. take away coffees etc.