Middle class family entry level coastal cruisers, what are they?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hey Ken,this is true, im a capitalist through and through, the reason, in a true capitalist society effort, drive and creativity are financially rewarded, dream, work and achieve. The middle class have thrived in the past due to capatlism.

I believe in freemarkets, supply and demand economics BUT not convinced this is what we have currently, some sort of quasi socilism disguised as capatlism, therefore not convinced hardwork is enough anymore.

Im in intetesting place right now, the Seychelles, socialism/communism past which is now practicing capitlism under the banner of socialism ...lol...not really sure what it is, $8 for a coffee yet the locals buy food at a government subsidized hypermart.

We are probably straying to much and verging on political ideals, what was the original post?

Reality is no one has ever tried true PER THE DEFINITION Capitalism, Socialism or Communism.

In their pure form, all of them are unmitigated disasters. In general terms, I would say the western world leans capitalistic but even that varies with some European countries tilting more towards the socialist but none practice pure socialism.

Ironically, some of the Communist and former Communist countries are the most Capitalistic. Probably a backlash against the problems with Communism.

But in the end, if people want to cruise, you can do it cheaply. You just aren't going to buy a brand new $500k boat on a $50k/yr salary...but that was never the case.

The one thing I think we are seeing is a rebound from the easy credit days of the early 2000's when people who had no business getting massive loans, can no longer get them.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

So what's wrong with starting out by fixing up an O'Day 20 for 2-4 day cruise adventures like we did back in the 1980's? We thought that boat was awesome.

I agree!! But we are a spoiled bunch now, will it have a cappuncino machine onboard?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Reality is no one has ever tried true PER THE DEFINITION Capitalism, Socialism or Communism.

In their pure form, all of them are unmitigated disasters. In general terms, I would say the western world leans capitalistic but even that varies with some European countries tilting more towards the socialist but none practice pure socialism.

Ironically, some of the Communist and former Communist countries are the most Capitalistic. Probably a backlash against the problems with Communism.

But in the end, if people want to cruise, you can do it cheaply. You just aren't going to buy a brand new $500k boat on a $50k/yr salary...but that was never the case.

The one thing I think we are seeing is a rebound from the easy credit days of the early 2000's when people who had no business getting massive loans, can no longer get them.

I agree.

[Fore and Aft]

I think it is the usual story of time and money. Both seem to be in short supply for a lot of people. We are one of the few families sailing at our marina and if we did not make boating a big priority in our lives then there would be no way we could afford it.
The Spencer 35 almost being given away, just needed a new motor sounds more like a nightmare than a bargain. The cost of the motor, prop plus whatever else you need to get her going again may be uneconomical. Then you get the privilege to sleep in an older pokey designed yacht compared to more modern yachts.
Thinking about it, I would have tackled a project like that. But have you seen hard stand fees lately? With fees in Hervey bay Australia being at least $50 a day and most of my friends all work 45+ hours a week. You almost could not afford to do the job yourself unless you took time of work and who has time for that? Times have changed and a lot of costs associated with the marine industry really prohibit families from boating.
I estimate that it costs us at least $200 a week to sail and maintain our 10 meter yacht in a marina here in Australia.
Cheers
Drew

[dwedeking2]

My slip is across from one of the local boat ramps. Plenty of families going out on 20k - 30k boats, they're just power boats. Easy to store either at home on a trailer or in a rack.

Speculative reasons why:

• Less cost to maintain/store (initially as they're newer)
• Faster to go do what you want (fish/hang at the sand bar) and then get back on land to your next activity.
• More of a social symbol
• Less work to get to where you're going.

To the unitiated I've found they think sailing is difficult to learn. I'm always hit with suprised expressions from "virgins" I've taken out that it can be very simple to sail from point a to point b (granted improving your sailing skills can take a lifetime).



Buying an older boat and restoring it can be a pain. Marinas don't want you working on a boat at the slip, they want you to pay them to do the work.

[Fence Man]

I would suspect that since the middle class don't mind paying(financed for 20+ years, no doubt) $120k for a wakeboard boat, the entry level coastal cruiser market is probably not as "entry level" as it once was. We are in FL shopping right now, and it seems that most of the entry level boats of yesteryear have been forgotten and neglected.

[Hoosiersailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The Middle class is what fueled General Aviation for decades, but it’s all but gone too.
I used to think Aviation just got too expensive, but then after buying a boat and cruising around and seeing hundreds of big motor yachts bellying up to the fuel dock for thousands of dollars of fuel at a pop, I decided it wasn’t a lack of money.

I decided a few years back that I was getting back in to flying. Got checked back out, renewed my medical and after a few flights, decided I should get an airplane. I mean I could get me a decent 4 seater for not much more than a luxury car. Then I looked at the price of av-gas, insurance, hangar space and maintenance...forget it it. Even doing all the maintenance myself I couldn't justify it. The $100 hamburger has become $500-600...

[montigre]

Let me throw a cog into the works: In my little marina on the Chesapeake, most of the owners are middle class, middle-aged empty nesters or divorcees. The majority own sailboats and of those, 1970s to early 2000s Pearsons, Catalinas, Sabres, and Hunters seem to be most prevalent. Most of the boats are between 28-33' with 3 being over 38' in length. Also, the majority take their boats out for a sail on a regular basis.

Granted, the Chesapeake may not be a good representative area of the general US boating demographics, but the statistics for my marina, and surrounding marinas which are about the same, are rather interesting.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Just wondering. Long ago there were folks in the middle class who bought sailboats and filled up marinas. The Catalina brand comes to mind of course. But now, what does a middle class family turn to when searching? Are there any new boats that are really affordable to this segment? Or do any of them want to go sailing? Or is there still a middle class? I started pondering this when the word of a Spencer 35 was available for free, practically, (but did need an engine.) But to my mind 20K or 25K for a boat like this might be within a middle class family budget, if they are enthusiastic sailors and live near good coastal cruising grounds....
Maybe I just need to get out more? I just don't see too many families out sailing in my neighborhood these days...

I bet nothing really has changed the past 20-30 years once you adjust the prices for inflation. The middle class seem to be able to buy $40k cars as compared to $20k for 20 years ago, the same is probably true of boats.

[rwidman]

It's funny how so many people can look at the same thing and see so many different things! Here's what I see:

The "middle class" no longer has disposable income. They have been taxed to provide free housing, food and cell phones for those who choose not to work. Let's hope this changes soon.

The middle class is now spending a lot of money on things that people didn't have or think they needed many years ago. TV used to be free. now it's $100 per month. And each kid has a new TV in his room. The telephone bill used to be $15 per month for a phone on the wall. Now it's $200 per month because each family member has his/her own phone. Instead of one vehicle, mom, dad and each child over 16 has a vehicle. A relatively new vehicle.

That said, my marina is primarily a dry stack with a few in water slips. The dry stack is full with a waiting list. Somebody is buying boats but not sailboats or trawlers. They are buying bow riders and center consoles.

[AJ_n_Audrey]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Getting to the point "middle class" in the US just means somewhere between the bottom 60-70% paycheck to paycheck no savings, little to no discretionary spending, and the top 10% who own*3/4 of America's wealth, income over $120k.

Any negative event puts them right in with the bottom group, and we're all familiar with how common those events are.

Plus that middle group is continuing to shrink, accelerating in fact.

Add in the Fear factor, we don't even let kids walk to school, play around the neighborhood without supervision, hitch-hiking?

Plus the hegemony of Comfort and Screens, laziness, dumbing down of practical skills.

But I think economics is the primary factor.

That post-war into the 70's prosperity increase was an anomalous blip, we're headed back to the old Belle*Époque of a tiny inherited aristocracy the rest fighting for scraps.

Agreed. I actually did an analysis of the General Aviation story, and that decline was pretty clearly economic. The % of annual salary of a middle class person that it took to buy and operate an airplane went up steadily from about 1974 through the present. Similar with boats in my opinion. Which is why it is so nice that fiberglass basically lasts forever, or at least 50+ years with care, and can be bought for a small fraction of what a new boat costs. Fyi, there is also real data available from scientific studies that shows that the current generation(s) are less "handy" than earlier ones. Too much screen time, and not enough working-with-your-hands time.

[AJ_n_Audrey]

Originally Posted by rwidman

It's funny how so many people can look at the same thing and see so many different things! Here's what I see:

The "middle class" no longer has disposable income. They have been taxed to provide free housing, food and cell phones for those who choose not to work. Let's hope this changes soon.

The middle class is now spending a lot of money on things that people didn't have or think they needed many years ago. TV used to be free. now it's $100 per month. And each kid has a new TV in his room. The telephone bill used to be $15 per month for a phone on the wall. Now it's $200 per month because each family member has his/her own phone. Instead of one vehicle, mom, dad and each child over 16 has a vehicle. A relatively new vehicle.

That said, my marina is primarily a dry stack with a few in water slips. The dry stack is full with a waiting list. Somebody is buying boats but not sailboats or trawlers. They are buying bow riders and center consoles.

Actually, if you look at the middle federal tax brackets (and most tax brackets) they went down significantly from 1950 to 1980, and again from 1980 to today. In 1980 it was between 32 and 37% for the middle brackets. In 2017, the middle brackets are 25 and 28%. So the real problem is that income for the middle class has been stagnant since 1980.

[Colin A]

The median middle class income was stagnant from 1999 to 2016. (fell in some years or stayed flat ) The income of the top 10-15% has risen in the same time frame. This has something to do with it but not all. Someone mentioned new cars, that's not really true. New cars sales per capita are down from the 90's and the average age of the car in the american fleet is now over 11 years old (oldest ever recorded). They just age better then the used too. On a side note on cars the average price has gone up against inflation there still are models that cost less but they aren't as popular as most new car buyers come from that new wealthier top 10%. Trying not to be political here just giving the numbers.

But that's not the only issue there are changes in the way people use boats. The power boat market as well as the sail market have both seen a shift away from cruising boats in particular the under 40' cruising boat market is bad for both power and sail. Some of this has to do with the fact that older boats last longer then older cars (they age somewhere between a house and a car) making new ones seem less appealing.

You also have a shift in use pattern. New powerboats have shifted to Center consoles and wake board boats. These are boats used for a purpose and a purpose you can do a day at a time. There was also an increase in pontoon boat sales. All point to ease of use and spending a day on the water instead of a week. Sailboats have a similar trend the sales of small sailing dinghies has not slowed nearly as much as the cruising boat market (many are for racing so again a boat you use for a day and used for a purpose rather then just tooling around).

Now there is an interesting aspect to this larger sail and power boats (say the over 50' market) do pretty well recently which would have something to do with that top 10% having growing incomes.

So that covers the new boats then we get into used boats. Here I will say as we have come out of the recession I'm starting to see the local marinas and yacht clubs fill back up again largely with boats built 20 years ago or more. These are middle class people but few have kids at home still. Kids are expensive, with the current deductibles on family health plans and the desire for your kids to get a head in school and sports kids cost more then they used to for the middle/upper middle class. That puts a pinch on having a 30' boat sitting at a marina for the weekends.

Here we get to a big stumbling block for boat ownership. Storage and slip costs (and repair costs). Those in the know have ways of cutting this down (DIY yacht clubs out of the way yards etc) but for a newbie who looks at pricing a boat say here in Eastern LIS, they are looking at $100 a ft for a slip $60 a ft for a mooring or more. Then 30-40 a ft for winter storage.

You can compare that to an RV. So I can go buy a brand new travel trailer with AC sleeps 6 and a 32" TV for $20k. I can then store it for $75 a month or free at home, and pay for a campsite at $50.00 a night for a family resort (pools full hookups kids activities etc) or $10 a night at some state parks. All of the sudden for the families left looking for an outdoor activity to share with the kids RVing looks a lot better. As a kid I did both (parents had sailboats and a travel trailer) My kids have never spent a week on a boat but they have in a camper. Why? The value is better. we still go out on our boats but we don't go cruising, I would like to but the time and money involved keeps me in trailer-ed boats (shout out to Keno mac I have a 19' oday bought for $500 with many hundreds more invested in parts).

On new boats as I recall the prices have risen against inflation. Alot has to do with production efficiency lost with lower production numbers. That said a new Beneteau or Catalina are priced reasonably well against the powerboat market.

[SV Siren]

From what I have seen and experienced with family, things are not going to improve much.

I have two nieces, very different circumstances. Both nieces are married, one family has a great income, stable, with conservative values. She and her husband both have school debt, which they are very actively paying off, and most likely will have children once that is done. They are also actively saving for retirement, and don't drive anything fancy or expensive. The other niece is also married, very little income, and she is pregnant, with no insurance, and student loans, and somehow they managed to buy and move into a house they just bought this past weekend to boot. They are living hand to mouth, with one on the way. Neither couple have any money left over after taking care of bills, one will be just much better off come retirement, and will not have an worries if one loses a job. There are no boats in either of their futures.

Many younger couples in the past, had a blue collar job, no student loans, and had disposable income. They(we) did not feel the need to drive a fancy car, have a house too big for our needs, no stainless everything, quartz countertops, and a lifestyle that pushed the envelope of the Jones's. We got by, and learned to do much more with less. A boat was still a splurge, but we had them, and used them regularly. We were on our boat every weekend, almost without fail. Everyone was at the marina, and there was a shared sense of community, and friendship. Those days are gone...sadly.

Nowadays, everything pulls on our time, this forum being a perfect example, every nugget takes away from just living "out there". Things have to be fast and instant gratification, if not they lose interest..speedboats just fit into that category.

Tax brackets..you can talk about them all you want..but I feel it's more about priorities, and lack of disposable income once all the bills for smartphones, cable tv, $50K cars, student loans, and the latest greatest fill in the blank(s) are paid.

[Captain Bucknut]

Good Question..... I think that one, there are a lot of options to spend your dollar. I agree that many are spending more money on electronic entertainment and that is one reason.

As for the recreation dollar..... a whole new multitude of options are now on your doorstep. I for one love to go camping, hiking, take the dog for a walk and cycling. As for on the water, there are paddle boards, kayaks, jet skies, kite boards, pontoons, bass boats etc.... All of those tend to be cheaper and easier (less intimidating?) than sailing.

I grew up on the water so that is where I gained my love for sailing. I have no problem with the thought or execution of purchasing a boat and maintaining her.

In fact this is a concern at the club I belong to. This past year we had about 15 of our docks sit idle and yet we have a wait list that is 90+ long (IKR!). So we are trying to brainstorm into how to get more folks involved. In fact that is our reason for existence. We lease the property from the State with a mission to promote sailing. We do this with a fairly vigorous learn to sail program and an active racing program. But even that is somewhat intimidating. One idea we implemented was a sail and salsa night. We invited the salsa club from one of the local universities out for an evening sail and then returned for a potluck and they taught us how to salsa. We'll see how that works out as far as generating interest.

The idea is to get more folks out on boats and actively involved so that we can break down the barriers to what was once considered a rich mans sport.