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Old 07-01-2019, 14:09   #46
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
As I understand it skipper on burdened vessel couldn’t stand for long due to health issues so was sitting and couldn’t see forward over bow while seated.
Wow, now that is damned poor excuse. Hopefully never to be a skipper again. The boat should be confiscated and the skipper enjoined from ever owning or operating a boat again, after having spent considerable time in jail for such reckless operation.

Very lucky that the three fisherpersons survived and without injury.

We had a somewhat similar instance here in Polson, Montana about a decade ago. Two best friends were out motor boating in separate boats, one following the other. The lead boat stopped and the following boat did not notice the lead boat stopping and powered up over the transom and ended up killing his best friend's wife. The couple in the lead boat did not see the collision happen when their friend charged up in their wake, but they knew that he had been following their lead. A case of negligence on both parties; never stop abruptly when there is traffic in your wake and never follow close behind another boat, especially not in line with the wake. And of course always keep watch and prepare for prompt evasive action. Seen that kind of close proximity driving of paired boats far too often, especially go fast boats and PWCs. Sailors often sail in close proximity of each other when racing and guess what happens from time to time [bump], but then sailboats travel at much slower speeds, well excepting hydrofoil racing sailers. Speed kills.
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Old 07-01-2019, 14:09   #47
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I know this. My point is that seaplanes on the water are restricted in their ability to manoeuvre, and IMO should be higher up the pecking order.

I certainly keep out of their way when they're taxiing. That propeller makes a pretty convincing argument.
The little planes that buzz around BC are pretty manoeuvrable while they're taxiing ... I just treat them like power boats. I think the real issue is that when taking off and landing they cannot be the stand-on vessel, since they can't maintain course and SPEED.
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Old 07-01-2019, 14:41   #48
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

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Originally Posted by Captain Graham View Post
Thank you for the kind words.

Your understanding of Overtaking Rule 13 is wrong.

If you are in any vessel and another vessel of any kind comes up behind you and wants to overtake your vessel the vessel doing the overtaking shall keep out of the way of the vessel it is overtaking.

The vessel coming up from behind can not just push other vessels out of the way.

You began by citing COLREGS, but failed to complete the citation. I provided a link to the detailed exemption and now I don't understand.

What you are saying is a grave deviation from COLREGS and is dangerous to anyone reading this who follows you guidance If the tenor of my post was less than gentile, it is because a "captain" was misquoting COLREGS. Considering Masters used to be tested on this stuff it is a tad surprising.

On those words I shall step out of this conversation and leave.
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Old 07-01-2019, 14:51   #49
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I know this. My point is that seaplanes on the water are restricted in their ability to manoeuvre, and IMO should be higher up the pecking order.



I certainly keep out of their way when they're taxiing. That propeller makes a pretty convincing argument.

Having lived near lake Union in Seattle for several decades I don’t really think they are that restricted in their ability to maneuver.

Also, during landing, takeoff and fast taxiing they are so much faster than other boats nobody is looking far enough out to do effective collision avoidance. And their acceleration is such that if you check them just before accelerating you may be fine and all of a sudden they are going 60kt and in your lap.
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Old 07-01-2019, 15:08   #50
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
So basically what you are saying is if something like the cross channel RoRo is travelling down the narrow channel entering or leaving Poole and comes up on a sailing vessel tacking up the channel ahead of him in the same direction he must slow down thus losing steerage way so the sailboat may continue regardless of the fact this could put him aground on either side of the channel.
I dont think so..
Lets review the scenario you are suggesting.

A ferry is entering a port.
A sailboat or any boat is in the channel ahead.

The ferry should have had a lookout and have seen the other boat miles before getting to the Sailboat.
The ferry should also be traveling at a safe spend at all times.
RULE 6 Safe Speed
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

If the ferry then decided it wants to overtake the sailboat it must keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. Rule 13.

If the ferry does not follow these rules and the sailboat thinks there might be a collision then it should deviate from the rules to avoid a collisions.

The sailboat may decide to get out of the way before there is a risk of collision, but according to the rules it does not have to.
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Old 07-01-2019, 15:23   #51
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

Quote Snore: If you are going to say I am wrong, please do your homework! The cited text specifically calls Rule B. Did you read it? Here is a link https://www.starpath.com/navrules/COLREGS_Part_B.pdf

Only a fool would impede a large vessel on Gov Cut or any other tight channel.

Are you really a marine service provider? Do you really have a license? This is the second time you have authoritatively posted misinformation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
You began by citing COLREGS, but failed to complete the citation. I provided a link to the detailed exemption and now I don't understand.

What you are saying is a grave deviation from COLREGS and is dangerous to anyone reading this who follows you guidance If the tenor of my post was less than gentile, it is because a "captain" was misquoting COLREGS. Considering Masters used to be tested on this stuff it is a tad surprising.

On those words I shall step out of this conversation and leave.
GENTLEmen: There seems to be some confusion. The cited Rule 13 is in Section II of Part B.

Reference the copy of the cited link https://www.starpath.com/navrules/COLREGS_Part_B.pdf

As copied below.

Part A, B and C can be read at the USCG link for both International and for Inland Rules: https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf

RULE 13
Overtaking
(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in Rules 4 through 18, any vessel
overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being
overtaken.


Note: There are no exceptions by other rules. Even as to Rule 18 which establishes the Responsibilities Between Vessels, give way / stand on which has been the topic of the OP.

If one can not keep out of the way when overtaking then one should not overtake a slower vessel and must be prepared to drop back while overtaking if the situation becomes dangerous, e.g., when a crossing boat appears or an oncoming boat appears. Note that hitting an overtaken boat with your wake that can cause harm to the boat or occupants is considered a collision caused by the overtaking vessel as settled in tort case law.

The vessel that is being overtaken is to maintain course and speed, except when a collision is apparent as denoted in Rule 17. Note that sailboats speed is regulated primarily by the wind hence maintaining speed would be to the best it can which could include slowing if the sailboat was to gather speed with an increase or shift of the wind.

RULE 16
Action by Give-way Vessel
Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel
shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear.

RULE 17
Action by Stand-on Vessel
(a)
(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall
keep her course and speed.

(ii) The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her
maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel
required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in
compliance with these Rules.
(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and
speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of
the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to
avoid collision.
(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in
accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with
another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit,
not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.
(d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep
out of the way.
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Old 07-01-2019, 15:27   #52
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

It is a shame we need rules for things that I think would be common sense. Or we have become that stubborn. Big ships always have right of way as I do not want to be under them. Boats fishing I give wide birth, if I were them would greatly appreciate someone doing so, it’s a pain to bring in all that tackle in and then put it back out. Trawlers with nets out wow stay away from what a mess. If hailing a vessel with no reply that I may collide with they can go right on ahead I will alter my course to avoid. Isn’t it best to just do what’s needed to avoid one another as any collision is dangerous and can injure someone. Just slow down or speed up and try to avoid those close quarter situations.
Have empathy think of how you would like to be treated, and if it’s shouting about the regulations on the side of the channel after a collision then seek help!
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Old 07-01-2019, 15:31   #53
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

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Originally Posted by Montanan View Post
Sharing a video of poor navigation of a trawler overtaking a very large square sailed vessel.

This is an example of how things should not be done. Both ships should have taken action to avoid this from occurring. Lots of late in response, totting of the horn or horns but no immediate course adjustment.

Being overtaken the sailing craft is the stand on vessel but dang they could have turned starboard albeit into the apparent wind and avoided being stood over.
This is a good example of 2 Captains who did not follow the rules.

1. The fishing trawler, who was really just a power boat because he was not fishing, did not give way to the sailboat.
2. The sailboat thought there was going to be a collision and should have deviated from the rule to avoid a collision. Rule2
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Old 07-01-2019, 16:01   #54
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

What seems to have been missed in this discussion is that local rules in harbours and rivers can override the International Rules for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea.
Harbours can (and do) make special provisions for vessels burdened by draught in channels, and in Sydney Harbour government and private ferries both fast and slow have absolute rights.
Also forgotten by our racing sailors, they have to obey the Colregs which stand above the racing rules as well.
Almost every summer we see some moron racer's rigging hanging off the bow and anchors of one of our ferries!
How many times have I been recreational sailing and been abused for obeying my responsibilities by some racer who screams out, "We are racing".
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Old 07-01-2019, 16:30   #55
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pirate Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

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Originally Posted by Captain Graham View Post
Lets review the scenario you are suggesting.

A ferry is entering a port.
A sailboat or any boat is in the channel ahead.

The ferry should have had a lookout and have seen the other boat miles before getting to the Sailboat.
The ferry should also be traveling at a safe spend at all times.
RULE 6 Safe Speed
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

If the ferry then decided it wants to overtake the sailboat it must keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. Rule 13.

If the ferry does not follow these rules and the sailboat thinks there might be a collision then it should deviate from the rules to avoid a collisions.

The sailboat may decide to get out of the way before there is a risk of collision, but according to the rules it does not have to.
Yeah.. Whatever..
Outside the channel the light coloured areas mainly dry during springs.. we keep out of the way of stuff like these as they enter and leave..
Re the lookout even radar cannot spot boats behind islands and buildings.
Damn satellite image did not load so made do with aerial photo
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Old 07-01-2019, 16:39   #56
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

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How many times have I been recreational sailing and been abused for obeying my responsibilities by some racer who screams out, "We are racing".
Ha, some racers give the sailing community a bad reputation. Racers must still keep out of the way when overtaking. Just yell Rule 12 and Rule 13 at them when they get cocky.

Inserting navigation hazards into a yacht race makes it more exciting, kind of like adding hazards to a golf course. I recall a group of fisherpersons getting even one day by dropping their anchors of their collection of boats so as to fish near the outside of a turn marker, thereby causing the sailboats to have to weave and deviate from the direct course considerably.
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Old 07-01-2019, 16:46   #57
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pirate Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

WPS - Poole Harbour satellite map
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Old 07-01-2019, 16:47   #58
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

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Originally Posted by morribabes View Post
I don't have extensive deep water sailing experience, mainly a coastal sailor, but have always treated the colregs as advisory, in that I will always act as if the other guy hasn't seen me, or is having a bad day. I'm on my boat to have fun, and see no advantage in shouting the odds with anybody else who might be struggling to make a deadline, or a living. I can take the time to stay out of his way, whoever he is.
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Old 07-01-2019, 16:49   #59
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

I think some of the confusion is that people are thinking about small boats.
The USCG COLREG was written with large commercial vessels in mind.
Yes all boat must follow the rules.

So some of the rules do seem foolish for small rec boaters, but they make sense for large commercial vessels.

These rules have helped avoid collisions and helped everyone know what to do without having to guess what they should be doing.
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Old 07-01-2019, 16:55   #60
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Re: Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

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Yeah.. Whatever..
Outside the channel the light coloured areas mainly dry during springs.. we keep out of the way of stuff like these as they enter and leave..
Re the lookout even radar cannot spot boats behind islands and buildings.
Damn satellite image did not load so made do with aerial photo
Sounds something like this situation



Whilst the Extreme Racing series was entertaining the crowds at this years' Aberdeen Asset Management Cowes Week, the supertanker hit a yacht which was then dismasted as its spinnaker sail was snagged by the ship's anchor.

The Marine Knutsen supertanker was being guided by a pilot boat into Southampton docks and was making its presence known by repeatedly sounding its horn. By one yacht didn't seem to give itself enough time to clear the massive boat and was hit before having its mast and rigging ripped off when one of its sail got caught in the supertankers anchor.

The yacht was quickly attended by several vessels offering assistance. It's not know if anyone was hurt.

The incident was captured by Tim Addison for COWES.co.uk
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