Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

[Montanan]

Sharing a video of poor navigation of a trawler overtaking a very large square sailed vessel.

This is an example of how things should not be done. Both ships should have taken action to avoid this from occurring. Lots of late in response, totting of the horn or horns but no immediate course adjustment.

Being overtaken the sailing craft is the stand on vessel but dang they could have turned starboard albeit into the apparent wind and avoided being stood over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFWHlFZEm3M

Here is the press release from this incident.

At a hearing 30/05/2011 at Southampton Magistrates the Officer of the Watch of a fishing vessel pleaded guilty to one safety charge brought under Section 58 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. He was fined £1,700 plus costs of £6,435.
On the 20th August 2010 the Andrea had finished fishing and was returning to port in the Netherlands. The skipper and rest of the crew were below leaving Jan Baarssen alone on the bridge in sole charge of the vessel. The Andrea is a 36.5 metre beam trawler registered in the UK but is based in the Netherlands
The Alexander von Humboldt was returning to Germany after a training voyage with a crew of fifty nine (59) consisting of thirty three (33) trainees and twenty six (26) full time crew. She is a large three masted sail training vessel registered in Germany.
The visibility on the day was good (10 Km +), wind was southerly force 5-6 with weather being grey and overcast.
During the afternoon of the 20th August 2011 the Alexander von Humboldt detected the Andrea on a steady bearing on its port side. The Andrea was not fishing and was the give way vessel. The Alexander von Humboldt started sounding its whistle. The Andrea failed to give way. The Alexander von Humboldt also tried to contact the Andrea by VHF radio but had no response. The Andrea claims to have gone hard to starboard and when within 15-20 metres of the Alex von Humboldt, the Andrea was seen to go full astern. The Andrea struck the port quarter of the Alexander von Humboldt. It was a fairly low speed collision.
Apart from some scratched paintwork, the Andrea was undamaged.
The Alexander von Humboldt was lucky to suffer only some dented shell plating with associated damage to internal wooden bulkheads and deck planking together with bent or buckled handrails. It was very fortunate that no harm came to the crew of the Alexander von Humboldt and that its rigging and watertight integrity remained intact.
Mr Jan Baarssen, 51, of Urk, Netherlands pleaded guilty for conduct endangering ships or persons. He was finerd£1,700 plus costs of £6,435
In passing sentence the Magistrates stated that it was fortunate that they were no injuries especially among the sail training crew.
Mr David Fuller O.B.E., Principal Fishing Vessel Surveyor for the Eastern Region of the MCA stated:"This is yet another incident occurring on the return of a fishing vessel to harbour. Fishermen are reminded of the requirement to keep a good lookout at all times. Also that that the trip is not over until the vessel is safely tied up in port.
We would like to thank the German and Netherlands Police for their assistance in this matter"

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

I'm sorry, I've tried and tried, but cannot think of any situation where a NUC will overtake anything.

Instances where that may occur are strong current or strong winds causing the vessel to drift, or I suppose when the propulsion system is powering without effective means of control, i.e., being runaway while underway, e.g., in gear and without steerage control as often happens when a vessel collides into a dock. Or when the vessel was underway but loses power and / or steerage.

Interesting reference regarding Not Under Command and AIS.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/servi...73463312000203

[Montanan]

Classic example of overtaking a sport fishing vessel and not giving way that many of you have likely seen.

Hey! Hey! Hey!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRpeOuBk5yQ

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

Please lets keep this thread friendly and no insulting.

I have found over the years many common misunderstanding about the Rules of the Road (72 COLREGS) and thought it would be fun to discuss them in a friendly atmosphere.

Many times people are confessed about the picking order.
One area of confusion is what is a fishing boat.

The Picking order is
Overtaken
Non Under Command
Restricted in their Ability to Maneuver
Fishing
Sailing
Power
Seaplane

Based on the above when a sailboat and boat engaged in fishing meet the boat that is engaged in fishing is the stand on vessel and the sailboat is the give way vessel.

Many times when I am talking with other boaters some will say I own a fishing boat so you sailors have to stay out of my way.
Most of the time this is wrong because they are talking about a sport fishing boat.

The USCG COLREGS are written for commercial boating and a fishing boat is a commercial fishing boat with nets, trawling and other equipment for hauling in large numbers of fish and is engaged in fishing at the time.
6 guys out fishing with poles off the back of a charter fishing boat is just a power boat.

So unless you are in a commercial fishing boat and engaged in fishing you are just a power boat, the Sailboat is the stand on vessel and you are the give way vessel.

Nothing in the COLREGS specifies commercial fishing vessels.

What kind of picking were the they confessing to? [emoji16]

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Paul Howard

A ColRegs debate now ongoing in my area is regarding rowing shells and paddled 20person dragon boats vs. sailboats. Our sailing club is in semi-protected bay with several sailing clubs, a marina of mostly power boats and rowing and dragon boat clubs. We must pass the rowing clubs and the area they practice in to get to open water. I maintain that rowed eight person shells have more power and more reliable power than a sailing vessel under sail in our area of shifty wind and light winds. They think sailboats should give way to them as they consider themselves restricted in their ability to maneuver. My 37ft catamaran has two 15hp. engines for a total of 30hp for 10,000lbs displacement. A eight person rowing shell can weight a ton fully crewed, but a fully trained male rower can develop 0.7hp, a female can develop about 0.5hp. Thus a male 8 has 5.6hp per ton and can go at a speed of up to 10knots. Thus they have a similar hp per ton when I am motoring, but I can go at a max of slightly over 7knots. When I am sailing in light winds and flat water (when the rowers are most prevalent and wide spread and going fastest) I often am doing less than five knots and, in the changeable winds in the restricted area, may occasionally be without steerage. Similar situation with the 20 paddler dragon boats.

The ColRegs do not address this sail vs. rowers and paddlers right of way, the only mention of oar powered vessels is in the section on Lights.

The Thames River Authority (London, England) considers rowed and paddled vessels as power-driven vessels by local ordinance and insist they give way to sailing vessels under sail only.

Paul: So what do you perceive are the rules of the road on the Thames for swimmers, tube fisherpersons, waders, downed skiers, and give way of the oar, paddle or sailing vessels. I believe the person's in the water are the stand on persons but are also the easiest to truly be stood upon / overtook by being run over. I have had to dodge a few fast moving and inattentive power boaters when swimming. And once many years ago, I even had to dodge a slow moving trawler that appeared to be engaged in shrimping remarkably close to shore when I had gone for a late night swim a couple of hundred yards off the coast of beautiful the Isle of Palms just north of Charleston, South Carolina. The skipper could not see me in the pitch dark and I did not make out its lights and direction until it was nearing. I would have been an unexpected catch in its nets. I recall the ocean current was pulling me along quite a lot that night, ended up coming back ashore about a third of a mile down the beach from our rented beach home and had to figure out which direction to go to get back to the home located just behind the dunes. Ah to be so young yet again. Nothing better than a leisurely night swim in the warm ocean out past the breakers and floating looking up at the stars.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

It's up to the seaplane to decide when and where it's safe to land and take off. Not much I can do to "give way" to one. I have enough trouble with the ferries and water taxis in NY Harbor!

Yes, but when they're on the water?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Classic example of overtaking a sport fishing vessel and not giving way that many of you have likely seen.



Hey! Hey! Hey!!!

As I understand it skipper on burdened vessel couldn’t stand for long due to health issues so was sitting and couldn’t see forward over bow while seated.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Yes, but when they're on the water?

If they are on the water they are required to yield to everyone that isn’t overtaking them.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Paul: So what do you perceive are the rules of the road on the Thames for swimmers, tube fisherpersons, waders, downed skiers, and give way of the oar, paddle or sailing vessels. I believe the person's in the water are the stand on persons but are also the easiest to truly be stood upon / overtook by being run over. I have had to dodge a few fast moving and inattentive power boaters when swimming. And once many years ago, I even had to dodge a slow moving trawler that appeared to be engaged in shrimping remarkably close to shore when I had gone for a late night swim a couple of hundred yards off the coast of beautiful the Isle of Palms just north of Charleston, South Carolina. The skipper could not see me in the pitch dark and I did not make out its lights and direction until it was nearing. I would have been an unexpected catch in its nets. I recall the ocean current was pulling me along quite a lot that night, ended up coming back ashore about a third of a mile down the beach from our rented beach home and had to figure out which direction to go to get back to the home located just behind the dunes. Ah to be so young yet again. Nothing better than a leisurely night swim in the warm ocean out past the breakers and floating looking up at the stars.

Apart from police divers looking for bodies I doubt anyone would want to swim in the Thames below the locks..

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Adelie

If they are on the water they are required to yield to everyone that isn’t overtaking them.

I know this. My point is that seaplanes on the water are restricted in their ability to manoeuvre, and IMO should be higher up the pecking order.

I certainly keep out of their way when they're taxiing. That propeller makes a pretty convincing argument.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Nothing in the COLREGS specifies commercial fishing vessels.

Snipet from post #5.

Indeed, the COLREGs do not differentiate as to whether a vessel is commercial, recreational, scientific, military, etc. as to purpose, instead COLREGs appropriately focuses on the vessel's relative manoeuverability [to be inclusive there are alternative spellings: manoeuvreability, maneuverability, maneuvreability, maneuvrability. Pick your dictionary].

A recreational boat encumbered with nets out would be considered a vessel engaged in fishing. So that begs the question how do you classify the stand on / give way status of a sailboat whose propeller or rudder has become fouled with fishing nets, crab pots, or another boat's anchor rode.

Rule 3 (General definitions)
For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restricts manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict.

COLREGs be damned, in Montana it would be considered poor etiquette to come within or overtake in close proximity to a fly fisherperson. Share the stream but don't crowd the stream.

[DEAN2140]

Let's not forget that the most common "situations" are two sailboats crossing on opposite tacks. If you are the stand on vessel, do not hesitate to holler starboard (or a horn if handy) to get the others attention. If they do not respond, take evasive action.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Apart from police divers looking for bodies I doubt anyone would want to swim in the Thames below the locks..

So then above the Richmond. I thought the Thames had largely been cleaned up even below London. But I was thinking further upstream in the reaches, such as around Henley-on-Thames where the scull boat regatta is held. I fondly recall memories of lovely pathways and lawns leading down to the river from when I was about 3 or 4 years old and living in various places near the river, e.g., High Wycombe and Oxford area before our family moved back to the States.

Bodies. Hmmm, now they truly lack maneuverability [and are so not COLREG compliant, failing to even keep watch] and I suppose could be considered NUC and thus should be given their one last stand on. Never been keen coming upon a body, kind of depresses one's day but such discovery does give closure to others, so one has to look upon that one upside when making the discovery. Ya, just never know it could be you one day. Always sad to have Search & Rescue become Search & Recovery.

[boatman61]

Way upstream there are river beaches where folks swim from but round Henley etc its mainly event swims where its posted in advance.. like Christmas, New Year dips..
Same goes for below the tidal locks though a part has been banned for the last few years.

Swimming in the Thames - Questions & Answers

[Randy]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Snipet from post #5.

Indeed, the COLREGs do not differentiate as to whether a vessel is commercial, recreational, scientific, military, etc. as to purpose, instead COLREGs appropriately focuses on the vessel's relative manoeuverability [to be inclusive there are alternative spellings: manoeuvreability, maneuverability, maneuvreability, maneuvrability. Pick your dictionary].

A recreational boat encumbered with nets out would be considered a vessel engaged in fishing. So that begs the question how do you classify the stand on / give way status of a sailboat whose propeller or rudder has become fouled with fishing nets, crab pots, or another boat's anchor rode.

Rule 3 (General definitions)
For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restricts manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict.

COLREGs be damned, in Montana it would be considered poor etiquette to come within or overtake in close proximity to a fly fisherperson. Share the stream but don't crowd the stream.

The sailboat which is fouled in nets could be considered NUC and would also be required to make its status known to approaching vessel traffic as advised by the COLREGS.