Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

So you think a 70,000 ton coal boat making a lee for the pilot at 3 or 4 knots is not severely restricted in her ability to maneuver by the nature of her work - the nature of her work being picking up a pilot - and would stand on regardless??

Worrying to say the least........

I am sorry I misunderstood your earlier post.
When you said approaching a pilot station at 3 knots, I thought you where saying that a large freighter was just heading to a location.

I did not take it to mean they where transferring a pilot.

So if they are transferring a pilot they are classified as "restricted in her ability"

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

I am sorry I misunderstood your earlier post.
When you said approaching a pilot station at 3 knots, I thought you where saying that a large freighter was just heading to a location.

I did not take it to mean they where transferring a pilot.

So if they are transferring a pilot they are classified as "restricted in her ability"

They may be slow steaming a mile or two from the pilot station... waiting their turn maybe.... still can't get out of their own way at those sort of speeds ( thinking of a truly remarkable situation I once witnessed )

And also ... when did you last see a ship picking up a pilot that was showing lights or shapes for a v/l restricted in her ability...?

And also also.... so a fishing boat drifting with a few lines out should up lines and get out of your way? I would suggest that the many small fishing boats south of Dondra Head are all working and are all restricted in their ability which may be why all that traffic going to and from the Gulf and Japan and China and Europe gives way to them ( when clear of the TSS ) .

They rarely never show anything but a single white light...

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

They may be slow steaming a mile or two from the pilot station... waiting their turn maybe.... still can't get out of their own way at those sort of speeds ( thinking of a truly remarkable situation I once witnessed )

And also ... when did you last see a ship picking up a pilot that was showing lights or shapes for a v/l restricted in her ability...?

And also also.... so a fishing boat drifting with a few lines out should up lines and get out of your way? I would suggest that the many small fishing boats south of Dondra Head are all working and are all restricted in their ability which may be why all that traffic going to and from the Gulf and Japan and China and Europe gives way to them ( when clear of the TSS ) .

They rarely never show anything but a single white light...

You are confusing a few things about the Rules.

First there are 2 difference categories.
1. Vessels Restricted in their ability to maneuver (RAM)
2. Fishing Vessels

Secondly
A ship moving slowly waiting for a Pilot does not have any special rights and is not a considered a RAM vessel.

Thirdly
A fishing vessel is clearly defined and if they are using just trolling lines then they are not considered a Fishing Vessel.

Please take some time and read the entire thread and you will see where many people have explained these issues.

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

What you have been saying and doing is safe,reasonable, practical, probably greatly appreciated by the large vessels you encounter. Although technically an error in how the rules apply. It’s a safe error,

It's not though. It is rule 34.

"(h) A vessel that reaches agreement with another vessel in a head on,
crossing, or overtaking situation, as for example, by using the
radiotelephone as prescribed by the Vessel Bridge-to-Bridge
Radiotelephone Act (85 Stat. 164; 33 U.S.C. 1201 et seq.), is not obliged to
sound the whistle signals prescribed by this Rule, but may do so. If
agreement is not reached, then whistle signals shall be exchanged in a
timely manner and shall prevail."

Guys, you have to take COLREGS in its entirety. You can't just harp on one rule until you are blue in the face. It is a cohesive rulebook and it starts foremost with rule 2.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

It's not though. It is rule 34.

"(h) A vessel that reaches agreement with another vessel in a head on,
crossing, or overtaking situation, as for example, by using the
radiotelephone as prescribed by the Vessel Bridge-to-Bridge
Radiotelephone Act (85 Stat. 164; 33 U.S.C. 1201 et seq.), is not obliged to
sound the whistle signals prescribed by this Rule, but may do so. If
agreement is not reached, then whistle signals shall be exchanged in a
timely manner and shall prevail."

Guys, you have to take COLREGS in its entirety. You can't just harp on one rule until you are blue in the face. It is a cohesive rulebook and it starts foremost with rule 2.

I see no mention of 'by using the
radiotelephone as prescribed by the Vessel Bridge-to-Bridge
Radiotelephone Act (85 Stat. 164; 33 U.S.C. 1201 et seq.),' in the International regulations....

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

You are confusing a few things about the Rules.

First there are 2 difference categories.
1. Vessels Restricted in their ability to maneuver (RAM)
2. Fishing Vessels

Secondly
A ship moving slowly waiting for a Pilot does not have any special rights and is not a considered a RAM vessel.

Thirdly
A fishing vessel is clearly defined and if they are using just trolling lines then they are not considered a Fishing Vessel.

Please take some time and read the entire thread and you will see where many people have explained these issues.

You have obviously no experience re the handling capabilities of large ships at slow speed nor have had any dealings with 'native craft' ....

I would suggest you revisit the 'First Rule of Common Sense'.....

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

It's not though. It is rule 34.

"(h) A vessel that reaches agreement with another vessel in a head on,
crossing, or overtaking situation, as for example, by using the
radiotelephone as prescribed by the Vessel Bridge-to-Bridge
Radiotelephone Act (85 Stat. 164; 33 U.S.C. 1201 et seq.), is not obliged to
sound the whistle signals prescribed by this Rule, but may do so. If
agreement is not reached, then whistle signals shall be exchanged in a
timely manner and shall prevail."

Guys, you have to take COLREGS in its entirety. You can't just harp on one rule until you are blue in the face. It is a cohesive rulebook and it starts foremost with rule 2.

Rule 34.h is Inland only, not international though following it in international waters would be reasonable.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

You have obviously no experience re the handling capabilities of large ships at slow speed nor have had any dealings with 'native craft' ....

I would suggest you revisit the 'First Rule of Common Sense'.....

A. Whatever his experience he has a good grasp of the legalities.
B. No such thing as common sense.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

You have obviously no experience re the handling capabilities of large ships at slow speed nor have had any dealings with 'native craft' ....

I would suggest you revisit the 'First Rule of Common Sense'.....

I would recommend to review the following Handbook on the Rules that Adelie posting earlier.
It does a good job in explaining the rules in simple English without all the legal words.

Originally Posted by Adelie

Handbook of the Nautical Rules of the Road

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

Thank you for your post.
Rule 3
(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

Thank you for your post, which explains Rule 3.

However, previously you said:

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

Please lets keep this thread friendly and no insulting.

6 guys out fishing with poles off the back of a charter fishing boat is just a power boat.

So unless you are in a commercial fishing boat and engaged in fishing you are just a power boat, the Sailboat is the stand on vessel and you are the give way vessel.

Does it really say "commercial fishing boat" in the rules?

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Thank you for your post which explains Rule 3.

However, previously you said:



Does it really say "commercial fishing boat" in the rules?

No it does not.
I used the word commercial fishing to try to get the point across that it is not talking about Sport Fishing boat.

(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restricts maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability;

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Adelie

A. Whatever his experience he has a good grasp of the legalities.

Agreed, though I did raise an eye brow as the English are want to do when he first started this thread. However, it is discussions like this that help to improve my knowledge and understanding of how to apply the rules rather than just quote them, which I do appreciate, even if I do question him occasionally.

Now I am sure he said "working boats" earlier

[Uncle Bob]

So far this thread has highlighted (for me) the sometimes extreme differences that can arise between those recipients of recently acquired "book learning" and those with not so recently acquired hands on practical experience.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I see no mention of 'by using the
radiotelephone as prescribed by the Vessel Bridge-to-Bridge
Radiotelephone Act (85 Stat. 164; 33 U.S.C. 1201 et seq.),' in the International regulations....

Reference 33 Code of Federal Regulations 26. It is not in the international COLREGs. The Rules of the Water ways are not limited to COLREGs, do not narrowly evaluate navigational procedures.

The Vessel Bridge-to-Bridge Radiotelephone Act is applicable on the navigable
waters of the United States (see 33 CFR § 26) which include internal waters that are
subject to tidal influence, those not subject to tidal influence but that are used or are
determined to be capable of being used for substantial interstate or foreign commerce,
and, the territorial sea (the waters 12 nautical miles wide, adjacent to the coast of the
United States and seaward of the territorial sea baseline…).

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navR...rt_Page208.pdf

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

You have obviously no experience re the handling capabilities of large ships at slow speed nor have had any dealings with 'native craft' ....

I would suggest you revisit the 'First Rule of Common Sense'.....

Well this will get interesting.

So now we are bringing Common Sense into this thread, 243 years and eight days from the publication of the first edition by Thomas Paine. Common Sense remains the all time best selling American titled publication and is still in print today. Truly a worthy read if there ever was one, so many notable subjects for quotation. It does not have a first rule, instead it has a four sections, the first being:

I. Of the Origin and Design of Government in General, With Concise Remarks on the English Constitution.

Common Sense made public a persuasive and impassioned case for independence, which before the pamphlet had not yet been given serious intellectual consideration.