Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

[Astrid]

Speaking of cultural differences, the jolly roger was also flown by RN submarines returning from a successful patrol, so the connotation is not always negative:

Submariners | Navy | Defence Jobs

If I recall, the HMS Conqueror flew the jolly roger on her return from the Falklands in 1982 in recognition of her sinking the Argentine cruiser Belgrano.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Notwithstanding that the CF's owner probably is an American (sometimes expat'), immature bad taste remains bad taste, even if eloquently rationalized, even by a well-intentioned cruiser of good will.

Indeed! Is he or is he not?

- - I also have a very sour taste in my mouth when watching supposedly adults glorifying pirates. For long term, world wide ranging cruisers, piracy is a constant fear and threat to our existence. Anybody making fun or glorifying it just don't sit well in the gut.
- - However, when Hollywood gets it teeth into something, be it pirates or even cowboys, reality goes totally out the window and near total fantasy takes over. It is amazing how Hollywood movies/cartoons/etc. about pirates have enormous fight scenes with swords, canons and other lethal weapons - and - nobody gets hurt or any blood washes across the decks like a river. Kind of like the cowboy chase on horses where the hero shoots his "six-shooter" 27 times without reloading.
- - So you end up with a total disconnect between real history and fantasy. And then people with boring, desperate lives latch onto the Hollywood myth to try to bring some "spice/adventure" into their sorry existence.
- - Get out there in the real world of cruising the world's oceans and your attitudes about pirates and the myth Hollywood perpetuates changes and then it can really grate on you when you see "grown" children playing pirate. (Although I don't mind the well endowed lusty lass dressed in the skimpy pirate costume. Some fantasies are okay. )

[AllezCat]

"Pirates" are fun - the Hollywood version that is.
There are more pirate books and paraphernalia in most children's book stores and toy shops than dinosaurs
Kids love it.
Nothing to do with robbery and crime.
More to do with fantasy - buried treasure and fairies (tinker bell).
And maybe escapism for adults. From the nanny state, bureaucratic pricks, etc.


As the original op said one has nothing to do with the other...

[Anzo]

I don't fly a pirate flag but have 0 problem with anyone who does. Harmless fun. Chances are I'd much rather hang around those who do. Pirates did bad stuff. The British and American flags have done more bad stuff than all the pirates in history put together by a factor of, oh, about 100000. If anyone in particular is offended by that, sorry. please feel free to anchor somewhere not near me, m'kay? I'm sure there's lots of other stuff you'd disapprove of, too.

[AllezCat]

Originally Posted by Astrid

Speaking of cultural differences, the jolly roger was also flown by RN submarines returning from a successful patrol, so the connotation is not always negative:

Submariners | Navy | Defence Jobs

If I recall, the HMS Conqueror flew the jolly roger on her return from the Falklands in 1982 in recognition of her sinking the Argentine cruiser Belgrano.

It is if you were on the belgrano

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by osirissail

(Although I don't mind the well endowed lusty lass dressed in the skimpy pirate costume. Some fantasies are okay. )

Wondered how long before someone dragged Zeehag into this....

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by osirissail

skimpy pirate costume.

She could raise my jolly roger.

[Jim Cate]

G'Day All,

For MarkJ... Mate, I'm beginning to worry about you, hanging out there in the Caribe -- crikeys, you actually are making sense and sounding mature. And right on as well.

I reckon that if you asked around the long term cruising fleet you would find little support for idolizing, glamorizing the image of or emulating pirates of any sort. Too many of us have either personally been attacked, had good friends attacked (as Mark has) or had friends murdered (as Ann and I have) to approve of any supportive activities, no matter how light hearted they may be.

While it may be true that many who fly the jolly roger don't approve of "real" piracy, their tacit approval sticks in our craws. For those who sail beyond the protective arms of the Coast Guard, piracy is a real threat, not something to joke about.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann

[Bash]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

The BVI's are different where it seems each Charter Boat is supplied with a Jolly Roger, one is sailing Drakes Passage and anchoring at places called Dead Chest, Privateer Point and Deadman Bay

We've got the same thing going around here in San Francisco Bay. Every fifth boat has a pirate flag.

I'm guessing they're all Raiders fans.

[Chief Engineer]

R
R R
R R R R
R R R R R R
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[Astrid]

It is if you were on the belgrano

Got me on that one.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by osirissail

- - Get out there in the real world of cruising the world's oceans and your attitudes about pirates and the myth Hollywood perpetuates changes and then it can really grate on you when you see "grown" children playing pirate. (Although I don't mind the well endowed lusty lass dressed in the skimpy pirate costume. Some fantasies are okay. )

Most have their black lines to draw.
But they are somewhere in the grey area.

PS;

When we use the Jon boat I usually carry a machete. Snakes and such you know.

Once when coming in from the bay we passed up another family in another Jon boat that had a jolly roger displayed. I moved closer and pulled out my machete and waved it at them with an loud AARRRR!

I was laughing but they were shocked and aghast. I guess they forgot what they were flying.

[Starbuck]

Wolfaroo said: The point is over time often things lose their original meaning/offense, so why not reclaim them in a humurous/entertaining/bit-of-fun way? Light-heartedness is the way forward PC brigade!

Note: contents of this post are for entertainment purposes only: any valid insights contained herein are purely the result of blind chance. Stereotypes are by their very definition types, meaning a collection of corelates meant to project a rough picture that nonetheless communicates a core truth. Your mileage (identification, self-perception, or personal ethos) may vary considerably.

As Wolfaroo noted, the pirates of yore are so safely removed in time that there are three distinct classes of "safe" adult identification with the Jolly Roger (and in the case of the first class, much other paraphernalia):

1. Fun-loving partiers who want to drink Captain Morgan, wear adult Halloween costumes and have a good time. These are the ones some call immature and would rather not anchor near.
   
2. Free spirits who identify with the idea of self-reliance and individuality in a rather personal and intense way. Usually great people to have around when you need something, because they take pride in being accomplished and skilled sailors, and take a certain inner pride in owning those skills; otherwise, give them their space and don't try to tell them what to do. They may not even feel the need for you to know what their personal ethos is by flying the black flag, because some are so independent they simply don't care what you think about them and tend to eschew any type of identification with any group. They believe, by and large, that people are idiots and don't wish to associate with their trendy idiocy.
   
3. Dreamy vagabonds who listen to Jimmy Buffet and are seeking an Endless Summer in paradise. Think Latts & Atts and listen to code terms like calling money "freedom chips."

As in all self-chosen identity, elements can be adopted from more than one category to create a custom-tailored persona. In CoastalCowboy's case, I sense elements from the second and third classes, and there are many like him. Blue Stocking is more of a pure second-class (William the) pirate (these are only my perceptions, and I could be wrong. I'm wrong a lot).

Anyway, any of those identities, or combinations, were all good and fine, until piracy re-emerged in the public mind, thanks largely to modern communications, just a few years ago. Now, what used to be merely a romanticized reference to the past, that sold many a child's Halloween costume and inspired many an independent adventurer, has come to be associated anew with a seriously lawless and violent reality.

So what are otherwise lawful people inspired by a perceived pirate romance or ethos to do?

The partiers don't think about it: the men are too busy applying their eyeliner and penciling on their Errol Flynn mustaches, and the women too busy getting that skull-and-crossbones navel ring to hang just so.

The second class, the independents, don't care much, unless they are a bit more annoyed than usual that the public mind sees their black flag (if they fly one at all) and comes to a stupider-than-usual conclusion about what it might mean.

The third class, the Jimmy Buffet/Latts & Atts guys, are the ones who are concerned about what others think of them, and it seems to them much more like a personal affront to be associated with modern-day Somalis, because it's more important to them that people to see them a certain way, and if the new PR is bad, they feel it reflects on their lifestyle, and by extension, them, negatively.

Sorry, Coastal, I don't see much you can do about it, except care less, or quit flying a black flag. You certainly can't go around passing out business cards printed with lyrics from "A Pirate Looks at Forty."

Good Luck.

[CoastalCowboy]

Yeah, but the thing is, I love a good debate. The whole point of the post was not to solve anything, or change anyone's ideas. The point was to have fun, share a few ideas, and maybe pick up a few great/humorous quotes. And ya gotta admit, we got plenty of the last. Noone got hurt, I think we all had fun and its been a great way to fritter some time on an otherwise ....MONDAY.

[CoastalCowboy]

oh, and one last thing. And this is mostly for MarkJ. If anyone has been offended, I certainly apologize for that. Lets all just relax and have a home brew.