Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

[nv5l]

Originally Posted by Bash

It wasn't just the British, and it wasn't just a naval practice. Read Richard Henry Dana's Two Years Before the Mast, and you'll see that flogging was practiced on merchant ships as well.

Pirate captains flogged their crews as well.

True, but Dana's captain was a jerk and everyone in San Diego was quite surprised by it.

[Adamante]

Originally Posted by Bash

It wasn't just the British, and it wasn't just a naval practice. Read Richard Henry Dana's Two Years Before the Mast, and you'll see that flogging was practiced on merchant ships as well.

For sure. I said naval, should have said maritime to be more encompassing. Actually, flogging was also used as punishment for hundreds of years on land, at least in Europe. It is not unique to maritime countries. However, the origin and tradition of the term is commonly thought to be British.

"The cat o' nine tails, commonly shortened to the cat, is a type of multi-tailed whipping device that originated as an implement for severe physical punishment, notably in the Royal Navy and Army of the United Kingdom, and also as a judicial punishment in Britain and some other countries." wiki

[Astrid]

The Romans of old used a similar whip, called the flagrum--essentially a handle to which were attached three or more knotted leather cords bearing sharpened metal or bone pieces along the length of each cord. It was normally used to punish slaves and was the usual prelude (scourging) to execution by crucifixion.

When the young Gaius Julius Cæsar led an expedition to capture the pirates who had held him for ransom, he had the captured pirates scourged before he crucified them.

[zeehag]

my source was james duggan's the great mutiny, a wonderfully interesting book about the changes in the royal navy in the 1790-1850 era.

[Adamante]

And to beat () this particular topic to death, I intend to add a number of other examples where men used whip-like implements to beat other men (or women). However, at the moment I need to change physical locations, so please stand by until I return.

Thank you.

[kismet]

Originally Posted by Don1500

Thought you might like a close-up of Zeehag!

I think the sword is to cut the rigging from your pants.

[Acedude]

Originally Posted by Astrid

When the young Gaius Julius Cæsar led an expedition to capture the pirates who had held him for ransom, he had the captured pirates scourged before he crucified them.

Yeah, but since Julius was in charge, when he did it, it was cool.

It's good to be the king (not a king, I know, but the point still stands. )

[zeehag]

actually the sword is a practical, for me, self defense weapon. i dont fight those with whom i choose to spend my time.

[Don1500]

Come to the Carrib Zeehag, let the sun shine on ye. Ya look a mite peaked.

[zeehag]

workin on it....workin on it....

[Adamante]

OK, I’m back as promised, thank you for your patience. I have now re-docked and am ready for combat.

Rather than wasting valuable time by recounting additional examples of men beating other men (and women) with whip-like implements over the ages, please feel free to peruse at your leisure the below-referenced link to “flagellation” at Wiki. It appears to be a reasonably comprehensive treatise and hopefully everyone will find their pet perspective duly represented.

However, if you feel this entry does not fully reflect what you have heard, or read in a particular book, or always believed, go ahead and change it! Editing Wiki entries is quite straightforward - or at least it was on the occasions I tried it. Actually, it’s a remarkably satisfying experience.

In any case, herewith is the preamble to the Wiki entry on flagellation (and please note the references to the British naval traditions as an origin of the cat o' nine tails):

“Flagellation or flogging is the act of methodically beating or whipping (Latin flagellum, "whip") the human body. Specialised implements for it include rods, switches, the cat o' nine tails and the sjambok. Typically, flogging is imposed on an unwilling subject as a punishment; however, it can also be submitted to willingly, or performed on oneself, in religious or sadomasochistic contexts.

In some circumstances the word "flogging" is used loosely to include any sort of corporal punishment, including birching and caning. However, in British legal terminology, a distinction was drawn (and still is, in one or two colonial territories) between "flogging" (with a cat-o'-nine-tails) and "whipping" (formerly with a whip, but since the early 19th century with a birch). In Britain these were both abolished in 1948.

Flogging was a common disciplinary measure in the British navy that became associated with a seaman's manly disregard for pain. Aboard ships, knittles or the cat o' nine tails was used for severe formal punishment, while a "rope's end" or "starter" was used to administer informal, on-the-spot discipline.

Flagellation probably originated in the Near East but then spread throughout the ancient world….”

Flagellation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Don1500]

Originally Posted by Adamante

OK, I’m back as promised, thank you for your patience. I have now re-docked and am ready for combat.

Rather than wasting valuable time by recounting additional examples of men beating other men (and women) with whip-like implements over the ages, please feel free to peruse at your leisure the below-referenced link to “flagellation” at Wiki. It appears to be a reasonably comprehensive treatise and hopefully everyone will find their pet perspective duly represented.

However, if you feel this entry does not fully reflect what you have heard, or read in a particular book, or always believed, go ahead and change it! Editing Wiki entries is quite straightforward - or at least it was on the occasions I tried it. Actually, it’s a remarkably satisfying experience.

In any case, herewith is the preamble to the Wiki entry on flagellation (and please note the references to the British naval traditions as an origin of the cat o' nine tails):

“Flagellation or flogging is the act of methodically beating or whipping (Latin flagellum, "whip") the human body. Specialised implements for it include rods, switches, the cat o' nine tails and the sjambok. Typically, flogging is imposed on an unwilling subject as a punishment; however, it can also be submitted to willingly, or performed on oneself, in religious or sadomasochistic contexts.

In some circumstances the word "flogging" is used loosely to include any sort of corporal punishment, including birching and caning. However, in British legal terminology, a distinction was drawn (and still is, in one or two colonial territories) between "flogging" (with a cat-o'-nine-tails) and "whipping" (formerly with a whip, but since the early 19th century with a birch). In Britain these were both abolished in 1948.

Flogging was a common disciplinary measure in the British navy that became associated with a seaman's manly disregard for pain. Aboard ships, knittles or the cat o' nine tails was used for severe formal punishment, while a "rope's end" or "starter" was used to administer informal, on-the-spot discipline.

Flagellation probably originated in the Near East but then spread throughout the ancient world….”

Flagellation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not really THAT interested.

[Adamante]

Originally Posted by Don1500

Not really THAT interested.

The important thing is that it's there, if you change your mind.

(Frankly, I'm not THAT interested either - I only scanned the first couple of paragraphs. But don't tell anybody.)

[minaret]

Originally Posted by zeehag

my source was james duggan's the great mutiny, a wonderfully interesting book about the changes in the royal navy in the 1790-1850 era.

Ah, the red flag of the mutineers. A beautiful example of the people of a nation standing up for themselves in an honorable way, and one of the early examples of spontaneous democracy and the beginnings of unionization IMHO. Of course they got screwed by the man and the ringleaders were hung from the yardarm, at least at the Nore if not Spithead...

[coyfish9906]

Originally Posted by Bash

It wasn't just the British, and it wasn't just a naval practice. Read Richard Henry Dana's Two Years Before the Mast, and you'll see that flogging was practiced on merchant ships as well.

Pirate captains flogged their crews as well.

I thought pirate captains had no authority unless they were engaging a prize or in a blow. It was a strict democracy. I read it in a book true history of pirates . Not correcting just sharing