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Old 29-08-2011, 13:28   #16
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Re: Jolly Rodger, Pirates and Political Correctness

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a particular song that sums up an attitude towards life that a lot of us ascribe to was brushed off with a simple statement that his music is not known world wide, most likely without ever even listening to or reading the lyrics.
Thats my point exactly... you are in an International forum! You are not in a USA forum.
Its not owned by an American, the servers not in the USA, nothing about CF is USA based except for a fair good number of members

So thats the thing about cruising. We can cruise anywhere in the world, or even just in our own country (wherever that country maybe). A cruiser needs to be more open in ways we never expected to be.

A couple in this very bay were attacked a month ago while anchored in another island. Lovely, nice, wonderful people who had a very near death experience and who bare the scars and will for all their days. I don't think we have a Pirate Party lined up, but if we do I wonder what jokes I can regale them with?

However, down here close to where the Venezuelan pirates operate I doubt we will have that sort of party

The BVI's are different where it seems each Charter Boat is supplied with a Jolly Roger, one is sailing Drakes Passage and anchoring at places called Dead Chest, Privateer Point and Deadman Bay


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Old 29-08-2011, 13:29   #17
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Re: Jolly Rodger, Pirates and Political Correctness

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Mark, I think you need to get laid...........
Chickens.... Hmmmmm Roasted....
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Old 29-08-2011, 13:29   #18
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Re: Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

Nothing was ever glamanous or romantic about being a pirate!!!

Thinking otherwise is like saying the same about some gang banger who shoots up some neighborhood!

Does not matter how pirates get protrayed in movies etc. in the end they are just murdering thiefs!

What are you saying by flying a pirate flag, that you wish you were murdering thief?
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Old 29-08-2011, 13:36   #19
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Re: Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

And I'm wondering how this became an issue about USA or not USA? Is the idea of individuality and being a free spirit an exclusively American thing? I really hope not. All I said was, don't dismiss a philosophy without at least giving the token respect of listening to or reading a reference you are given by someone espousing it. I started this thread by saying I was sure some would disagree, and I'm not suprised, or disappointed, that they do. I welcome the exchange of ideas, and respect the views of everyone.
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Old 29-08-2011, 13:44   #20
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Re: Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

Well, by all means. Lets stop letting people fly the Confederate Flag, regardless of the reason for flying it, because some people think it represents slavery. Lets make all motorcycle riders drop the popular references in graphics and paraphernalia to motorcycle gangs, cause after all they were pretty bad guys too. The University of Oklahoma should stop calling themselves the Sooners, because that's a reference to the "Sooners" who cheated in the land run. Robin Hood was a highwat robber, better not glamorize him anymore. Then again, America, the UK, France and most of the western powers embraced slavery at one time, maybe we better quit flying our national flags. But wait, all that sounds silly doesn't it. Just like condemning the flying of a flag that isn't even used by the people today who are the basis for the condemning of the jolly roger.
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Old 29-08-2011, 13:47   #21
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Re: Jolly Rodger, Pirates and Political Correctness

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I'd never been to a Barmitzvah before..........But I won first prize

Mark, I think you need to get laid...........

I was going to say that anyone that posts in this thread needs to get laid, but then I realized DOJ beat me to the punch about MarkJ. I also realized he invalidated what I wanted to say.

So curse you DOJ. And everyone else needs to get laid.
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Old 29-08-2011, 13:49   #22
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Re: Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

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Just like condemning the flying of a flag that isn't even used by the people today who are the basis for the condemning of the jolly roger.

Are you saying there is some select few pirates that should be honored? If so fly thier individual flag!

PS - yes Robin Hood was also a thief, just had a better press agent.
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Old 29-08-2011, 13:53   #23
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Re: Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

It's complicated... and depends on context. Flying a pirate flag in place of a national courtesy flag when entering a country that potentially has real crime issues would be really stupid. Modern piracy is ugly, brutal, and nasty.
Historical piracy was mostly that way, too, but with exceptions and complexities. Some of the historical pirates were sometimes sanctioned by their crown as privateers. Some were disgruntled supporters of the Stuart cause who rebelled at the institution of the House of Hanover and attacked colonial commerce for partially political reasons. Some of the Bahamian pirates later accepted the King's pardon and subsequently became respected citizens. Some used terror as a bluff and actually committed little violence. But others were needlessly cruel and bloodthirsty (say Charles Vane).
One other slight reprieve for the historical Caribbean pirates' reputation is that they practiced a crude form of democracy and relative egalitarianism. Captains were generally elected and generally only got to keep slightly more loot than their crews. In an era of widespread autocracy and despotism (before the USA's revolution), they were among the most free of people ... until they got caught and sentenced to be hanged by the neck until dead, may God have mercy on their souls.
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Old 29-08-2011, 13:53   #24
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Re: Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

I don't mind pirate flags.....Can't stand Jimmy Boo-Fay or Steel Drum Bands.
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Old 29-08-2011, 13:57   #25
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Re: Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

Good question. My children asked the same question the other day, "why do people like pirates, wern't they criminals?", Answer; well yes they were. Sorta.

When the tradition of the day was for the great nations navies to take turn seizing each others supplies, and sinking each others ships in endless wars of conquest to see who would "own" which island.

Pirates carved out a niche in the middle, taking gold, (that had been stolen from the Incas, or Mayans), from both sides, sometimes getting a permit, (letter of marque), from an opposing navy to do what the naval ships were doing "legally".

The only difference is they didn't have to answer to a king, or a fleet admiral, etc... As long as they turned a profit, and didn't get caught, they could play one navy against the other taking spoils from both.

Were they murderous thugs, well yes they were, but one would often get better treatment from a pirate, than lets say a British merchantman captured by a French man o war or vice versa.

One thing we do glamorize, No one would task a pirate ship entering port, (unless it was shelled as soon as it entered), for check in , cruising plan, registration, entry fees, cruising permits, fishing permits, passports, id's, zarpe from previous ports of call, etc....(any untaxed rum on board).

The good old days may not have been that good, but they did have their upsides as well.

I guess we can all be glad that all the extra paperwork and fees has put a stop to smuggling, and crime.
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Old 29-08-2011, 13:59   #26
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Re: Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

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Are you saying there is some select few pirates that should be honored? If so fly thier individual flag!
No, and I think you miss the point. When someone flys the Jolly Roger, it ain't about REAL pirates past or pirates present. Any more than following the traditions relating to renaming a boat or crossing the equator means that you actually BELIEVE in the religious or superstitious beliefs that gave birth to them. If you are going to make judgments on what someone is doing, for instance flying the jolly roger, doesn't it make more sense to make those judgments based on why they are flying it, rather than why you think they are fliying it?
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Old 29-08-2011, 14:01   #27
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Re: Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

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Is the idea of individuality and being a free spirit an exclusively American thing? .
No, not at all. But some may be mistaking the pirate mythology as being more universal. Its like the mythology of the Wild West. Thats American. We can't have an Australian Cowboy movie. It just doesn't work because its not our mythology - and we didn't ever have 6 Guns till the First World War!

Though the pirate literature probably started in England it was greatly enhanced by Hollywood. Who can't have wanted a swashbuckling life when watching Errol Flynn as a kid at the Saturday afternoon flicks?

There is nothing wrong with enjoying all our differences in culture because it teaches us more and that is what cruising is about. Cruising is NOT about unblocking the heads, its about unblocking the brain


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Old 29-08-2011, 14:02   #28
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Re: Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

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Some of the historical pirates were sometimes sanctioned by their crown as privateers.

.

Yes, so that made them acceptable to that crown/people. But I'm sure the people of the ship being attacked would still call them murdering thiefs!

I bet the Somali pirates feel they are just as justified in their actions. But to everyone else they are ....... you got it, murdering theifs.
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Old 29-08-2011, 14:04   #29
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Re: Jolly Roger, Pirates and Political Correctness

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Though the pirate literature probably started in England it was greatly enhanced by Hollywood. Who can't have wanted a swashbuckling life when watching Errol Flynn as a kid at the Saturday afternoon flicks?

There is nothing wrong with enjoying all our differences in culture because it teaches us more and that is what cruising is about. Cruising is NOT about unblocking the heads, its about unblocking the brain

Now that I could not agree with more.
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Old 29-08-2011, 14:10   #30
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Re: Jolly Rodger, Pirates and Political Correctness

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Thanks for approaching it with the thoughts some could disagree.
I do.

I think people flying some Jolly Roger flag are juvenile F-wits who know bugger all about the world they live in. I felt this particularly strongly last year when I arrived in the Caribbean to a flock of silly americans flying black flags. I had just come from the Gulf of Aden and played the game for real near Somalia.

Jimmy Buffet is a US music artist. He is not known world wide. I haven't heard one of his songs since I left St Martin 6 months ago. He isn't universal even in the Caribbean.

Yes, I have mellowed a bit in the 8 months since I have been in the Caribbean. If grown up children want to wear a black patch I won't actually have a go at them.
However people do criticize those white men who dress up for a party as a negro slave. http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/wallabies/blackface-fans-of-radike-samo-at-wallabies-all-blacks-tri-nations-decider-give-qantas-black-eye-airline-sorry/story-e6frf55l-1226124187574
Or men who dress as women but not because they are gay or transvestite but poking fun at them. Ditto its not possible (one would think) to dress up as a Klu Klux Clan member and walk down main street Alabama and when arrested say: "I'm just having fun, get off my case!"

People dressing up for a horror party may dress as the Grim Reaper but should they drag around a machete pretending to be a rapist?

Pirates are a bit in the middle when it comes to the south eastern USA and Caribbean... the parrot on the shoulder is like a fancy dress party.... but those who have been butchered at sea; lost their life savings; or had their boat stolen or pilfered will not see the fun in you pretending to be their killer.
Not sure, but I don't think I am gonna lay awake at night, worried about what someone thinks about my Jolly Roger and eye patch.

So far a pirates in Somolia, a simple willy pete gernade scatters them to the 7 winds.
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