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Old 13-02-2016, 15:14   #106
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
This is a very interesting subject, and one I have thought about so many times, not just in regard to CF, but other online sites I frequent. I often find the online world difficult to function in for a variety of reasons, but bottom line is that, for me, it combines so many elements that I truly enjoy; communicating with people from diverse backgrounds, writing, learning new information, being exposed to different viewpoints; so I carry on and try to navigate it all without getting run over. (Not easy sometimes.)

For me, I often have to monitor my comments because in real life I have a rather dry and sarcastic sense of humor, which people who know me totally get, but it doesn't always translate well into the written word, especially if you forget to attach your little smiley faces. I think over time I have identified most of the others here and on other forums who share my acerbic wit and appreciate them for having the skill to get it out there without getting clobbered.

The thing that absolutely confounds me....that, being a people person, I honestly do not understand, are why there are so many people on a SOCIAL forum who seem to have the most unsocial tendancies. They say they are just here to "learn," and don't care about being social. There are so many informational sources out there that require no personal interaction with others, you can read to your hearts content, watch videos, download tutorials, and gather any and all kind of information you could ever want, without ever having the need to be rude to another person. So why do they? Why are there some people on this forum (and most others) who I can honestly say I don't think have ever seen make a single comment of a positive nature, even though they post frequently. If they followed my Mama's advice and "didn't say anything if they couldn't say anything nice," they wouldn't have a single post on here anywhere.

I understand that we all come from different life experiences and viewpoints, and I find that to be so very interesting, but there are so many who turn that into a basis of being mean. Instead of just saying "this is what I do" or "this is how I do it," they have to extend that to say, "this is what I do and you are all idiots who do it or see it differently." They either don't understand that by making sweeping, generalized, insulting comments there are going to be actual, real people here who are going to be saying, "wtf??"

On the thread where we were talking about Facebook. One poster, rather than just saying they don't use Facebook and don't like it had to extend those comments to say that anyone who does has "frustrated adolescent tendancies." Or the thread where we were talking about sailing boats with simple systems and someone had to say, "the only reason people sail simple boats is because they can't afford boats with the good stuff on them." Or the ongoing, never friggin ending, posts where there are a couple of posters who take every opportunity to say that people who spend time restoring boats do so because they don't know how to sail, or don't really want to sail. And of course I don't even need to go into the gun threads, anchor threads, keel threads, production boat threads, health care debate, composting head issue. OMG........

From politics, to religion, to diet, to type of boat, there is nothing that can't be criticized in the most insulting of ways. I guess it's just human nature, but not a part of human nature that I find particularly attractive, and it is truly a stumbling block to being "social."

So, I find that I'll initially find a thread interesting and try to get involved, and then a couple of the rude posters will come skidding into it with their forked tongue (keyboard) ablazing, and rather than get my Irish up and take the chance of getting moderated I just check out again and move onto the next thing, because once you get one of them in there the only people that remain after awhile are those who enjoy arguing with them. To me that thread is dead after that.

Tbere are a couple of threads going over on Sailnet started by people who used to be on this form who want to have everyone believe that it's better there. Their reasoning is that this forum is over moderated. I for one think it's unfortunate that we as reasonable, intelligent adults need that amount of moderation.


Boatie likened it to a sailor's bar. I think that is a good analogy. So the question is, why don't we talk to each other here the way we would actually talk to each other if we were sitting face to face across that bar. I venture that a lot of these rude posters would never in a million years talk to another sailor in person they way they do here on the forum. If they did, I dare say some here would find themselves drinking alone.
Or in the back alley, waking up an hour later covered in blood. There are some people who do not take kindly to being challenged or called less than honest. A very good friend of mine is the best friend you could ever ask for, but he's been permanently banned from several bars for severely rearranging someone's face, one time over being accused of stealing a measly 50 cents on a pool table. In every case, the bartender felt the bleeding lump on the floor had it coming, so they always gave my friend a 5 minute head start before calling the cops.

Your post was excellent and I think it was very insightful. A lot of people have been discussing the internet phenomena of less than polite discourse and it seems the concensus is that the anonymity afforded by a keyboard gives some people the courage to be rude when they should have been taught better by their parents.

I suppose that is what is causing most of the rude behavior, but I was on a website where most of the members met and knew each other in real life. Within a few years, it was common knowledge which wives were interested in having an affair with anyone, who else was having an affair, who had had a threesome, who was a deadbeat dad but still spending a ton of money on recreation, who was soaking her ex-husband for alimony and child support and felt that entitled her to eat BonBons and watch TV all day, which four guys "dated" someone's daughter in the same weekend - in short - all of the dirt you didn't want to know about your neighbors and were afraid to ask.

Even this intimate level of dirt on each other didn't prevent high levels of douchebaggery and name calling and trolling, aided by the moderator's "hand's off - this is a self moderating website" attitude which basically means it was a free for all. The petty bickering rose to such a level that all of the better contributors left and all that remains there now are the argumentative, name calling little mental midgets that drove everyone away. The website has lost most of it's advertisers, lost a lot of traffic and is now circling the drain.

I really don't see that happening here unless the moderators just give up entirely. I was a mod on a diesel website, and much like CF, the rules were fair and well written. It was easy to enforce them (no personal attacks of members or vendors, remain polite at all times, no name calling, no ad hominem attacks) and we often got thanked for doing a great job because everyone was treated equally and no infractions ever slid through. We had to eventually ban a few hotheads who just could not stay polite, and everyone understood why it happened and how many chances the offender was given before the final banishment went into effect.

Like Ann, I think the mods here are doing a good to great job. Perhaps a little better consistency might help (poor Polux has recently gotten more than his fair share of abuse and has remained amazingly civil throughout. I doubt most of us could have shown that level of restraint.)

Anyhow, my philosophy is it's great to have some spirited debate and multiple sides to every question, it's just not OK to denigrate the other poster or call their sanity, intellect or integrity into question. As long as you stick to the topic, all should be ok.
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Old 13-02-2016, 15:19   #107
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Really good posts oldrag, Anne, Phil, Thomm. Etc etc. pretty much all really good posts! 🍻
I agree!!
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Old 13-02-2016, 15:36   #108
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
That's true. And if you call them a troll you know which of you will get a long threatening PM? It wouldn't be the troll.
Perhaps the problem is that your definition of troll may not be the accepted definition. I've seen people throw the troll flag just because they were losing an argument. That is not a troll. If someone is truly trolling, it's very obvious that they are doing it and the mods should have no problem spotting it.

Here's a good example of textbook trolling. "Why do catamarans motor almost 100% of the time?"

It takes a patently false, offensive supposition, masquerades it a statement of fact, and throws it in everyone's face right in the title. It's a straight up slap in the face of all multihull sailors (if you took it seriously.) The fact that it has not resulted in riots in the streets is a testament to the members and moderators on this site.

A troll is very well defined and pretty easy to spot when you ask, "What was the ultimate purpose of this post or thread? To spark thoughtful discourse, or just to underhandedly insult a group of people?"
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Old 13-02-2016, 15:57   #109
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
This is a very interesting subject, and one I have thought about so many times, not just in regard to CF, but other online sites I frequent. I often find the online world difficult to function in for a variety of reasons, but bottom line is that, for me, it combines so many elements that I truly enjoy; communicating with people from diverse backgrounds, writing, learning new information, being exposed to different viewpoints; so I carry on and try to navigate it all without getting run over. (Not easy sometimes.)

For me, I often have to monitor my comments because in real life I have a rather dry and sarcastic sense of humor, which people who know me totally get, but it doesn't always translate well into the written word, especially if you forget to attach your little smiley faces. I think over time I have identified most of the others here and on other forums who share my acerbic wit and appreciate them for having the skill to get it out there without getting clobbered.

The thing that absolutely confounds me....that, being a people person, I honestly do not understand, are why there are so many people on a SOCIAL forum who seem to have the most unsocial tendancies. They say they are just here to "learn," and don't care about being social. There are so many informational sources out there that require no personal interaction with others, you can read to your hearts content, watch videos, download tutorials, and gather any and all kind of information you could ever want, without ever having the need to be rude to another person. So why do they? Why are there some people on this forum (and most others) who I can honestly say I don't think have ever seen make a single comment of a positive nature, even though they post frequently. If they followed my Mama's advice and "didn't say anything if they couldn't say anything nice," they wouldn't have a single post on here anywhere.

I understand that we all come from different life experiences and viewpoints, and I find that to be so very interesting, but there are so many who turn that into a basis of being mean. Instead of just saying "this is what I do" or "this is how I do it," they have to extend that to say, "this is what I do and you are all idiots who do it or see it differently." They either don't understand that by making sweeping, generalized, insulting comments there are going to be actual, real people here who are going to be saying, "wtf??"

On the thread where we were talking about Facebook. One poster, rather than just saying they don't use Facebook and don't like it had to extend those comments to say that anyone who does has "frustrated adolescent tendancies." Or the thread where we were talking about sailing boats with simple systems and someone had to say, "the only reason people sail simple boats is because they can't afford boats with the good stuff on them." Or the ongoing, never friggin ending, posts where there are a couple of posters who take every opportunity to say that people who spend time restoring boats do so because they don't know how to sail, or don't really want to sail. And of course I don't even need to go into the gun threads, anchor threads, keel threads, production boat threads, health care debate, composting head issue. OMG........

From politics, to religion, to diet, to type of boat, there is nothing that can't be criticized in the most insulting of ways. I guess it's just human nature, but not a part of human nature that I find particularly attractive, and it is truly a stumbling block to being "social."

So, I find that I'll initially find a thread interesting and try to get involved, and then a couple of the rude posters will come skidding into it with their forked tongue (keyboard) ablazing, and rather than get my Irish up and take the chance of getting moderated I just check out again and move onto the next thing, because once you get one of them in there the only people that remain after awhile are those who enjoy arguing with them. To me that thread is dead after that.

Tbere are a couple of threads going over on Sailnet started by people who used to be on this form who want to have everyone believe that it's better there. Their reasoning is that this forum is over moderated. I for one think it's unfortunate that we as reasonable, intelligent adults need that amount of moderation.


Boatie likened it to a sailor's bar. I think that is a good analogy. So the question is, why don't we talk to each other here the way we would actually talk to each other if we were sitting face to face across that bar. I venture that a lot of these rude posters would never in a million years talk to another sailor in person they way they do here on the forum. If they did, I dare say some here would find themselves drinking alone.
You raise a really important point. There are so many other sites that give information, whether it is "how to's" or maps, whatever. The amount of valuable information that isn't advertising is amazing. Perhaps CF needs another section which gives links to these many valuable, free sites.
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Old 13-02-2016, 16:05   #110
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

What an interesting post to wake up too

Some really well thought out and interesting responses. I'm glad the Mod's are letting this be discussed, though I'm sure their watching with intense scrutiny . I'd give my number one post to Ann T. Well said always a sensible response I've noticed over the years.

I've been around a little while on CF. To be honest, apart from experiencing sailing, CF has given me the most experience in learning (from someone who came across from the dark side of purely motor boating ).. I'm not entirely sure I've noticed any significant change, perhaps only a small change, which I'd have to say in a tolerance of unacceptable behavior. Two threads come to mind that seemed at the time to go way too far which may have encouraged trolling, one was the Rebel Heart thread, and the other was one of the Climate Change threads. Both were originally closed, but wow what was permitted until then was one of CF low points.

To the other extreme, I had a post removed for calling a well known public figure a 'buffoon', which seems so strange. Made me think twice about calling Donald Trump anything at all and sometimes I think a whole thread will get shut down just due to the potential that exists, which is a shame.

It sometimes worries me that the occasional blatant, racist, homophobic, bigoted, sexist remarks are permitted even after pushing the 'mod' call button. And of late there seems to be a permitting of anti Islamic comments getting through which really concerns me. And someone mentioned Polux as a patient member.. I too have noticed his tolerance of all the targeting he gets. He should received a special button for the most polite and tolerant of replies in the face of trolls

But, overall, I like CF because the Mod's do a damn good job. I know behind the scenes there is often a lot of Mod discussion as to whether they should act and that takes time. In the end, all we can expect is there best attempts. And I think they accomplish that.
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Old 13-02-2016, 16:08   #111
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

"Douchebaggery".

My day is officially made. Love learning new words.
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Old 13-02-2016, 16:33   #112
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

I would like to complement the mods, it must,at times, be a miserable job. A few days ago I came on a post that could almost be termed 'sick' I reported to the mods [never tried that before] and within about 15mins, it was gone.
Thank you mods,we probably never know how much you actually do.
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Old 13-02-2016, 16:37   #113
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Grolsch okay..??
or would you prefer Oranjeboom...
Its the DutchBelgian.. as opposed to French beer..
What about a Stella but a Grolsch is fine too.
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Old 13-02-2016, 16:40   #114
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

Well, here's my take on all of this.

There have been a ton of well written, thoughtful posts in this thread. IMHO, a lot of the problem is never about the useful info that gets posted, but by the sometimes derogatory comments that came with it, or the apparently rude delivery. I say apparently rude because sometimes a short or terse response can come across as rude when that wasn't the poster's intent at all.

Something I've noticed on this forum in particular is the number of people who post from their phones and tablets. I am posting from my laptop, and that's a change from when I only posted from a desktop with an excellent keyboard.

It seems to me that posting from a phone especially, is not exactly an easy task, so I imagine members who are doing so keep their posts shorter and perhaps this results in the appearance of curtness, rudeness, terseness... you get the idea. I always try to give the benefit of the doubt on posts where it's not entirely clear if the poster meant to slight the other, or did autocorrect strike again? Was the poster short in his reply due to the difficulty in writing a novel on an Iphone?

At any rate, it's OUR website, and although the mods do a great job, ultimately it's a reflection of what we put into it. If we all put forth a bit more effort in being nicer, more helpful, less critical, more forgiving, more understanding, I'm sure we'd all like it much more. I can't sing Kumbaya, so you all lucked out there!

It doesn't hurt to be nice to each other, although I have had some bite marks on my tongue.
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Old 13-02-2016, 17:00   #115
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

I am astounded at the number of replies to this thread, found myself wanting to give up reading but couldn't, probably because the undercurrent intensity I felt from others was akin to the two-fold reason why I'd joined in the first place: needing to be around similar-minded peopleand those who could offer the technical support I lack.

Yes, it has been a bit of a breath taking roller-coaster experience with some of the replies I've read (particularly those related to women) but oddly enough, only yesterday as I added another link to an already HUGE list helpful references from members, I had an overwhelming surge of gratitude for having CF available to me. I'm isolated here, a lone woman aboard in an anchorage where more boats are left empty or abandoned than occupied--and frankly, an almost non-existent chance of finding a partner with the occasional single-hander when so many lovely young Filipinas are available. So CF posts keep me tethered securely and comfortingly to a community I love and need. I'd really be lost without all of you.
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Old 13-02-2016, 17:19   #116
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Boy I must be missing out. Nobody told me I had cronies. Hope that's not like cooties.

Somebody has been holding out. Hey guys.... Where's my Cronies????
If I say you have cooties it's because your soooo Pretty.
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Old 13-02-2016, 17:30   #117
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

Gaffermate, and everybody,

Fwiw, I think it takes courage for a woman to write about her feelings here, to make public what is usually private. Becky really took the lead here.

If you look at the new joke thread, some people think it is funny to post representations of a woman's day vs. a man's day, and I think mostly, it is a reflection of how the two genders view the expression of emotion, and maybe the value of emotional expression. Boy people, alone together have different standards of behavior for themselves than they use with women. [I just asked a man friend of ours about that the other day, wanting to confirm what I had suspected.] I guess what I'm getting at is that this is really mainly a men's forum, with a small, slowly growing, number of women participants. I have told myself, especially on the jokes thread, "well, Ann, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the effing kitchen." The policy works okay (not great) for me.

I miss the folks whose internet persona I had grown to like, who have left, just like I miss some of the real cruisers who have moved on.

Gaffermate, remember the old saw, "a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle?" For some women, that's really a true view, but for others, they'd rather have a good man to share their life with, and that's a true view, too. However, be wary of what you share on a public forum, because there have been stalkings of different kinds, and I think women are somewhat more vulnerable to that anti-social behavior.

Finally, I do think we should report posts we find offensive. It is sort of our responsibility to help the mods. It is unrealistic to expect them to read word for word of every thread--perhaps a fate worse than death! So, to all you people out there who don't speak up when you read something amiss, do it. As I understand the moderation process, it is a group deal, and no one acts unilaterally, and we need to hold up our end of the line, too.

Ann
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Old 13-02-2016, 17:31   #118
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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...................................... Perhaps CF needs another section which gives links to these many valuable, free sites.
You may not yet be aware of just this topic, interestingly just from earlier today:

Tips and Tricks
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Old 13-02-2016, 17:41   #119
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What about a Stella but a Grolsch is fine too.
Stopped drinking Stella 20 odd years back when they started serving it in plastic glasses.. it had already got a bad name as the other 50% of a 'Snakebite'.. the "I wanna get outa my face and kill" cocktail of certain bars..
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Old 13-02-2016, 17:56   #120
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Gaffermate, and everybody,

Fwiw, I think it takes courage for a woman to write about her feelings here, to make public what is usually private. Becky really took the lead here.

remember the old saw, "a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle?" For some women, that's really a true view, but for others, they'd rather have a good man to share their life with, and that's a true view, too. However, be wary of what you share on a public forum, because there have been stalkings of different kinds,
Ann


Thank you, Ann, for your concerns...I agree (especially about bicycles, which is why I'm not eager to rush into any relationship) but I confess to hesitating about being too open when I wrote, and now again am not sure if I should reveal that I'm confused about your reference to stalkings of different kinds. Wasn't sure if I should be responding here, or should I be sending a private message? Decided to be public in case others had pertinent thoughts on the subject but I admit to feeling really stupid about it

What other kinds of stalking am I vulnerable to besides someone lurking behind banana trees or sending (blockable) emails?

Diane
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