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Old 14-02-2016, 19:41   #271
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
He's suggesting the mods add a button where you can nuke someone if you don't like their posts

(I'm free to comment on his posts because I'm on his ignore list )
We just need to extract this concept from the Simpson's universe and integrate it with the forum...



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Old 14-02-2016, 19:43   #272
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
I think the first step would be to come to a common understanding of what is bullying. So far reading this thread I don't see a great majority of participants agreeing on one acceptable to a great majority definition.

Personally I don't think that pointing out perceived this or that fault in other people's boat is bullying. Anymore than telling them their fly is open (if it is open). Nor telling someone they're crazy to try to circumnavigate in an old 25' Bayliner motorboat with a gas I/O and a 100gal gas tank.

I do think that any ethnic, religious, sexual preference, etc. put downs and repeated jokes (after being asked not to) are also if not bullying but close to it. I am a great believer in the concept of being able to say in a public forum what's on one's mind short of advocating direct violence or threats against particular person or group of persons. And so far I have not seen anything in this thread or on CF in general which would rise to that level. For example as distasteful as the calls to ban Muslims from entering US may be, these do not rise to "violence" or "bullying" in my book, just another distasteful political opinion. In general I am much more afraid of PC police shutting down the voices which do not confirm to PC version of the "beautiful world" than I am concerned that some rare mentally unstable person may go off the bend after a perceived bullying of them.

I am considerably disappointed that this wonderful forum is being pushed, however imperceptibly, to succumb to the current plague of PC police attempts to shut up the however distasteful voices and currently unpopular opinions. This is a slippery slope which does not harbinger great future as we all have seen how it ends in other parts of the world.
Yes, I agree with you that having substantiated opinions about anything regarding cruising, sailing and about yachts is not bullying. An opinion being substantiated does not make it necessarily right, only acceptable as an opinion. Many times reality have several ways to be looked upon none of them necessarily right. Just different views regarding a subject.

But when there is no substantiation whatsoever and when a post has only as objective to be rude and insulting to the ones that don't share the opinions of the one that has posted it, it is a bullying attitude specially if it regards not only a single poster but if several posters post similar posts devoid of any other content than an insulting one.

I expressed it on a previous post and I think that moderation should not allow that.

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....
On a discussion over a controversial subject posters express their opinions in an argumentative way substantiating their views.... but at a certain point on the serious discussion there are always some posters, that not adding anything regarding the topic in discussion, start lobbying to one of the sides with out of context posts that are many times rude to the supporters of one of the views, that are belligerent, that are sarcastic and certainly not relevant to the discussion not addressing anything, or any point in discussion and which only objective is diminish the supporters of other opinions, not by arguments but by bullying.
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Old 14-02-2016, 19:43   #273
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Oh, I see. So that's why Pol Pot was able to violently murder 60% of Cambodia's population in the 70s or the thousands murdered by the death squads in Yugoslavia and Central America in the 90s, or the genocides in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia, etc, etc - because we are so much less violent to intervene. And then we started Iraq, Syria, Lybia, et als (of course 20-30 years too late) - to teach these countries our Kumbaya version of politics. Right?

My only complaint, which is btw supported by many historians, that being scared in the aftermath of WWI, the Allies did not intervene in Nazi Germany when Hitler was weak and was actually afraid of their intervention 1935-6 after his occupation of Ruhr and re-militarization of the country in violation of Versailles Treaty. So we were too peaceful to "bully" Hitler into submission when he was relatively weak and instead had to deal with him 5-8 years later at the total cost of 50mil lives instead of "few thousands" it would take in 1935-6. What a deal and what shining example to the future generations of kids of how not to be bullies to the "bad people" in the world.

ahh okay You and Rabbit should get a long really well
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Old 14-02-2016, 19:51   #274
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Its funny...I read the first page, then the last page (this page) of this thread, only to find the bickering the OP was referring to.
And so it goes..................
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Old 14-02-2016, 19:52   #275
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Its funny...I read the first page, then the last page (this page) of this thread, only to find the bickering the OP was referring to.
you did not
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Old 14-02-2016, 19:53   #276
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post

My only complaint, which is btw supported by many historians, that being scared in the aftermath of WWI, the Allies did not intervene in Nazi Germany when Hitler was weak and was actually afraid of their intervention 1935-6 after his occupation of Ruhr and re-militarization of the country in violation of Versailles Treaty. So we were too peaceful to "bully" Hitler into submission when he was relatively weak and instead had to deal with him 5-8 years later at the total cost of 50mil lives instead of "few thousands" it would take in 1935-6. What a deal and what shining example to the future generations of kids of how not to be bullies to the "bad people" in the world.
I've always understood that the leeway given to Hitler - in the beginning - was because of a general feeling that the Treaty of Versailles may have been more repressive than was reasonable.

Not fear but a desire to act reasonably.

Understandable that the French should have insisted on such punitive reparations given that their nation was the most devastated but it's often blamed for having sowed the seeds of WWII.

IIRC.

I still don't really mind the French that much
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Old 14-02-2016, 19:57   #277
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
ahh okay You and Rabbit should get a long really well
I hope you don't misconstrue my position. I am not a violent (or bullying) person by nature. But if put in the circumstances where I believe a little violence will prevent a bigger violence I will always choose the former over non-action which many a time lead to a much greater evil.

And to paraphrase Churchill - the next generation of bullies will come in the guise of anti-bullies.
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Old 14-02-2016, 20:05   #278
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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I've always understood that the leeway given to Hitler - in the beginning - was because of a general feeling that the Treaty of Versailles may have been more repressive than was reasonable.

Not fear but a desire to act reasonably.

Understandable that the French should have insisted on such punitive reparations given that their nation was the most devastated but it's often blamed for having sowed the seeds of WWII.

IIRC.

I still don't really mind the French that much
Not to go off topic too much (already?) but the reparations were a hare brained idea of the bankers who bankrolled the Allies in WWI and needed a way to have these loans repaid. And of course they were too oppressive and unrealistic given the state of the world economy in the late 20s-early 30s (although actually just prior to Hitler's coming to power most loans were on a fast track of being repayed without the really harsh consequences perceived by the public, it was just one of Hitler's many con jobs on the German people. Had Germany been allowed to revive itself post WWI (the same way Germany and Japan were allowed to do post WWII) the result would have been much closer to that after WWII. At least the bankers learned that much in the 40s.
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Old 14-02-2016, 20:08   #279
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Its funny...I read the first page, then the last page (this page) of this thread, only to find the bickering the OP was referring to.
E=sailorboy1;2046264]you did not [/QUOTE]

ohhh yeah he did. Such is life on a forum
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Old 14-02-2016, 20:09   #280
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
We just need to extract this concept from the Simpson's universe and integrate it with the forum...



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Absolutely. ....can I have a turn pressing the button? Lol
( I'm joking ( sort of))

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Old 14-02-2016, 20:13   #281
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Re: Is Cruisers sailing forum losing it's way

A lot of interesting and ..er..slightly? Off topic content... I'm not sure exactly how we ended up discussing Hitler but again, thanks for all the input. We will now be returning to our regular sailing program. Thanks also Janet for the excellent thread summary below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janet H View Post
Really interesting thread and many opinions. I thought it might be worth touching on a few issues raised here...

The community rules are worth a read. They have evolved over time to reflect the community we desire to have and to address issues that are consistently difficult for the community. There was a time when these rules were much shorter and basically said: Be nice, be reasonable, be appropriate. The fine print has evolved because each one of us understands those terms differently.

Regarding restriction of political speech: Cruisers forum is and was always intended to be primarily about sailing and related topics. This is the common interest for members and the reason the board exists. Many of the forums rules were set in place to help keep a focus on this and the reason political and religious discussions are limited. They become heated and shift the focus of the board away from boating.

Censorship: Typically the site team doesn't actively moderate a topic just because they disagree with opinions posted. Heck, we don't remove posts EVEN when advice might be stupid, dangerous or daft. It's up to readers to mull over opinions and then form their own. Moderator actions are surprisingly few and we don't edit content without notifying a member about the edit and the reasons for that edit.

Checks and balances: When there appears to be a problem thread or post what typically happens is that some one reports the problem - usually a member involved in the fray. A moderator may respond in one of several ways. They may message involved parties and try to smooth things over or calm the situation. Occasionally they may temporarily remove the post in question from public view pending a review by the site team. At that point the site team discusses how to proceed, determines if there is a problem and then arrives at a course of action; either restoring the content, sending PMs to those involved or taking some other action including removing the content in question. Interestingly this happens quite rarely. But one of the most important functions of moderators is participating in these decisions - we each have different opinions and unilateral decision making is discouraged so that we can find a moderate response to a problem. Most moderation actions are taken after a back room discussion about how best to proceed and reflect the will of the entire site team. Moderators are VOLUNTEERS and it's hard duty. They are also people who sail and are entitled to opinions and often post them. Moderators are encouraged to stand down from moderating if the issue involves their own posts. Other site team members will take up the concern.

About the Be nice rule: The devil's in the details. This is the crux of most issues on the forum. Our members come from widely varying backgrounds, geo-locations and social strata. We each have a unique threshold for what constitutes "nice" and members often find themselves navigating "Nice" with fuzzy charts. Where one member thinks a comment is funny, another may be mightily offended. Interestingly a small handful of members are the target of the majority of complaints. Some folks take grave offense when another member disagrees with them and react in ways that inflame a situation, ramping up hostilities. Predictably, we have a small handful of members who thrive on stirring the pot with very little return other than drama. Nice is relative.

The reason for the be nice rule is that conflict that escalates to name calling and insults is a distraction from the topic at hand; cruising. Forum drama becomes the center of attention instead of great discussions about sailing. Drama drives away shy posters, new members and novice sailors who don't want to be on the receiving end of a cyber beatdown.

Every forum has it's own vibe and there is room in the ether for all of them. Other forums make different choices and that's fine but unfortunately sometimes folks who belong to more that one board forget the rules of the site they have logged into. Consider a factory gate bar vs. a bar at a marina, vs. a bar at a high end yacht club. All are bars, all serve beer but the behavior standards for patrons are different at each establishment. We aim for the marina bar paradigm. Everyone is welcome and there is no dress code but brawls and catcalls are not acceptable.

Occasionally evaluating how we're doing is productive. Over the years we have done this repeatedly and we will continue. The real value of a forum is the members who participate and help each other and we would like the CF to be a reflection of the sailing community at large. Helpful, fun, open to new adventure and supportive. Thanks for your input. It's a good mirror and your are comments well considered.
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