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Old 08-02-2014, 08:11   #61
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

Okay, no one in on this lengthy discussion has said anything about the derived statistics of the Catalina 22. Let me do that.

The capsize screening formula (CSF) of the C22-2 (judging by the windows in the picture, that's the version you have) is 2.53. The CSF is a rough-and-dirty measure of how well a hull can resist the turtling forces of boisterous waves and how easily the boat can right itself again after it becomes turtled. The higher the number, the poorer the performance. The Catalina 30 has a CSF of 2.0, and that is generally considered a maximum for seaworthiness.

The motion comfort ratio (MCR) of the C22-2 is 10.44. The MCR is a rough-and-dirty measure of how well a hull resists being tossed around by boisterous waves. In this case, higher is better. The Cat 30 has an MCR of 24.71.

In the course of writing my soon-to-be-published book Seaworthy Sailboats, I developed a new Seaworthiness Index (SI), which is simply the MCR divided by the CSF. My friend Ted Brewer, who has designed many fine, seaworthy sailboats, has tested my SI on a wide variety of boats and he tells me that he would not be happy going offshore in a boat with a lower SI than 15.0. The SI of the C22-2, at 4.1, is very low.That of the Cat 30 is better at 12.4.

The three things that determine the values of these derived statistics are displacement, beam, and waterplane area. The Cat 22-2 is very light and rather beamy for its size, and it has a very large waterplane area, all bad for offshore capability. Another liability is the swing keel (if yours has one), which MUST have a lock-down, or its CSF will drop to near zero.

I owned a Cat 22-1, which is marginally more seaworthy than the 22-2, and I loved it. I plan to buy another one soon, for lake sailing. My other boat is a Seafarer 38 ketch. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind which one I'd take to the Bahamas. Sure, oceans have been crossed by skilled, daring sailors in sailing bathtubs, but with a north wind blowing against the Gulf Stream, the passage from Florida to the Bahamas is a nasty piece of water and the last place I'd want to be in a Cat 22. In good weather, with a southerly wind, it could be a piece of cake. In bad weather, you could be a statistic.

My advice: Get or make a reliable lock-down for your swing keel. Buy an epirb. Sail your boat close to shore in all kinds of weather so you know what to expect of it and of yourself under a wide range of conditions. Then start sailing offshore, each time a bit farther into the Gulf Stream until you get to know its moods. Then choose a good weather window, file a float plan with the Coast Guard, lock both your keel and your companionway, command the blessed Universe to protect you, and set out.
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:31   #62
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

Nice plug for your book, but even you admit that going to the Bahamas is not the same as sailing offshore UNLESS you are dumb enough to ignore the weather forecasts. An Epirb is overkill for that trip--a DSC (modern) VHF radio hooked to a GPS will do fine if you want help.
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Old 08-02-2014, 10:08   #63
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

I just love it when someone starts spouting formulas and figures. As a master shipwrite I have built many yachts of many sizes and they are still sailing well after 40 years. I also had the fun when coming out of the Royal MArines to take a Westerley Sirrus 23 ft round the world 32000 miles in 43 months and never once worried about the size of the yacht. The most important factor in the question is was the yacht well built and the rig the best. Second the qualifications of the master. there are many many sailor going round the world in even smaller yachts without worries so like all things in life if you want to go then go. I wishyou fair winds and kind seas. Please enjoy one of lifes adventures.
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Old 08-02-2014, 10:30   #64
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

Well.. it's been done in a Hobie Cat... what are the numbers for that! Diana Nyad could do it... wonder what her CSF and SI are?
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Old 08-02-2014, 10:47   #65
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

I'm frankly surprised by these snide, snippy responses to my post, which was only intended to provide some possibly helpful information that hadn't yet been considered in this very extensive thread. Should I have kept my mouth shut?
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Old 08-02-2014, 10:52   #66
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

There's a big difference between stunt sailing and cruising. Just because it technically can be done by someone in some weather window on a Hobie doesn't make it a good idea, and it doesn't mean that beach cats are good choice overall. I don't put a whole lot of stock in the formulaic stability numbers either, but the original poster was self-admittedly new to sailing, and there are certainly more forgiving options for pointing away from the mainland than a C22.
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Old 09-02-2014, 14:30   #67
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pirate Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

The trick is.. you do the crossings in S'lies.. which are fairly frequent..
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Old 09-02-2014, 15:14   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feelsgood View Post
I just love it when someone starts spouting formulas and figures. As a master shipwrite I have built many yachts of many sizes and they are still sailing well after 40 years. I also had the fun when coming out of the Royal MArines to take a Westerley Sirrus 23 ft round the world 32000 miles in 43 months and never once worried about the size of the yacht. The most important factor in the question is was the yacht well built and the rig the best. Second the qualifications of the master. there are many many sailor going round the world in even smaller yachts without worries so like all things in life if you want to go then go. I wishyou fair winds and kind seas. Please enjoy one of lifes adventures.
What an excellent post.
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Old 09-02-2014, 16:10   #69
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by feelsgood View Post
I just love it when someone starts spouting formulas and figures. As a master shipwrite I have built many yachts of many sizes and they are still sailing well after 40 years. I also had the fun when coming out of the Royal MArines to take a Westerley Sirrus 23 ft round the world 32000 miles in 43 months and never once worried about the size of the yacht. The most important factor in the question is was the yacht well built and the rig the best. Second the qualifications of the master. there are many many sailor going round the world in even smaller yachts without worries so like all things in life if you want to go then go. I wishyou fair winds and kind seas. Please enjoy one of lifes adventures.
I just love it when someone starts spouting ignorant opinion, especially master shipwrights who misspell shipwright and Westerly Cirrus owners who misspell Westerly Cirrus. Come on, people, if you insist on broadcasting negativity, at least don't do so in ways that will make you look ridiculous.
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Old 09-02-2014, 16:33   #70
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

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Originally Posted by davidlaing View Post
I just love it when someone starts spouting ignorant opinion, especially master shipwrights who misspell shipwright and Westerly Cirrus owners who misspell Westerly Cirrus. Come on, people, if you insist on broadcasting negativity, at least don't do so in ways that will make you look ridiculous.
I wish you well with your book and I thought your SI was interesting...
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Old 09-02-2014, 16:34   #71
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidlaing View Post
I'm frankly surprised by these snide, snippy responses to my post, which was only intended to provide some possibly helpful information that hadn't yet been considered in this very extensive thread. Should I have kept my mouth shut?



No, of course not. We all have our opinions, and we put them out there (some of us actually Add in a bit of experience too)

Disagreement is the nature of a discussion forum, it is best not taken personally.

Post away man!
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Old 09-02-2014, 16:37   #72
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

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The Catalina 30 has a CSF of 2.0, and that is generally considered a maximum for seaworthiness.
Not true. CSF of 2 is considered not a maximum, but just the acceptable figure for average boat. Loads of boats have CSF of less than 2.
On the other hand - Beneteau 331 has CSF of 2.43
Surely unfit for sailing to Bahamas....
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Old 09-02-2014, 16:40   #73
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

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Originally Posted by davidlaing View Post
I just love it when someone starts spouting ignorant opinion.
I just love it when someone starts spreading words of wisdom using such language like "turtling forces". What a high level science...
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Old 09-02-2014, 16:44   #74
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

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Originally Posted by davidlaing View Post
In the course of writing my soon-to-be-published book Seaworthy Sailboats, I developed a new Seaworthiness Index (SI).
I suppose Mr. Marchaj works in this regard (like "Seaworthiness - the forgotten factor") are well known to You?
How will You rate Catalina 22 seaworthiness from this point of view?
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Old 09-02-2014, 17:13   #75
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Re: Is a Catalina 22 Seaworthy Enough to Make the Passage from Florida to the Bahamas

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Not true. CSF of 2 is considered not a maximum, but just the acceptable figure for average boat. Loads of boats have CSF of less than 2.
On the other hand - Beneteau 331 has CSF of 2.43
Surely unfit for sailing to Bahamas....
In my extensive review of the literature, I have never seen 2.0 referred to as 'the acceptable figure for an average boat.' On the other hand, I have seen plenty of references to 2.0 being the maximum value acceptable for offshore work. Of course it's true that 'loads of boats have CSF of less than 2.' My book Seaworthy Sailboats covers 399 of them, and that's just in the bluewater cruiser category. There are plenty more in coastal cruisers and cruiser-racers.
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