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Old 15-07-2013, 09:43   #121
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Re: If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Yeah, right. Not buying that. More like you won't try to explain yourself 'cause you don't wanna expose your total lack of experience in boat repairs. Horizontal cracks can't be fixed, lol! I've worked on many boats owned by people like you, convinced their engineering degree trumps our scads of real world experience. It doesn't come even close. Fess up, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to fixing boats! How many major structural repairs have you personally executed, by yourself? It annoys me when people refuse to even attempt to back up their BS, and this was a particularly annoying attempt to do that. Only thing I'm frustrated about is that someday someone on the forum might actually believe you and give up on a boat that's easily fixable.
Don't hold back, you are with friends.

I personally have some amount of practical experience fixing boats. I also have technical degrees. Having a technical degree allows insights that trump experience in many instances.

The problem with just experience is that one doesn't know what they don't know. You know what you think works but will the structural repair really hold up in the extreme. How much testing has been done to understand if the approach is solid. Do you understand all that has come before to end up at the current solutions. There is a whole gray area to deal with that raw experience will be found lacking.

FWIW, engineers don't have all the answers but the approach to solutions is methodical. The method is to stand on the shoulders of all that has come to pass and improve on it.
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Old 15-07-2013, 10:10   #122
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Re: If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
Don't hold back, you are with friends.

I personally have some amount of practical experience fixing boats. I also have technical degrees. Having a technical degree allows insights that trump experience in many instances.

The problem with just experience is that one doesn't know what they don't know. You know what you think works but will the structural repair really hold up in the extreme. How much testing has been done to understand if the approach is solid. Do you understand all that has come before to end up at the current solutions. There is a whole gray area to deal with that raw experience will be found lacking.

FWIW, engineers don't have all the answers but the approach to solutions is methodical. The method is to stand on the shoulders of all that has come to pass and improve on it.
While I agree with this perspective to a certain point, I don't believe it is as cut and dry as this. I am a Machinist by trade. I also work on boats part time. During my 30+ years as a Machinist, I was asked in the 90's to be an Engineer at an Engineering group in Silicone Valley. From there, I secured other Engineering positions until a few years later went back to the trade I really enjoy...machining. While working as an Engineer I ran into other Engineers like myself who didn't have any "formal training". They were excellent problem solvers. I was told and believe strongly that "There are Engineers without degrees and degrees without Engineers".
This point was really proven one day as I entered a clean room to resolve some fixturing issues. There in the clean room was a (I kid you not) a wooden fixture created by an Engineer who had come out of the University of Bangladesh.
What I find with most tradesmen, if they are smart and a go getter, is that they get a feel for what is right and what is not. You can throw all the numbers at something you want. The repair can fail for many other reasons. Most repair shipwrights I have seen are smart enough to err on the side of "nothing too strong ever broke". I think after years of boat work you become totally acquainted with what is going on with the structure.
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Old 15-07-2013, 10:50   #123
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Re: If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?

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Don't hold back, you are with friends.
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Old 16-07-2013, 14:46   #124
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Hello Jack! I would add that it is difficult, sometimes, to explain very technical topics unless you have the technical background to evaluate and understand what is being stated. When I am asked : "Can you elaborate on that?", I usually don't. I do want the person who asked the question, to dig up the answer from various sources in order to complete his/her understanding. When you research it yourself, it will stay a bit longer with you than if I just hand you the answers. There is no doubt in my mind that there are countless artisans, craftsmen and Old Salts, on CF, that are frustrated with what I state because of lack of a "complete explanation"; it is not always possible to dilute engineering concepts to just a few sentences. Boat building has been with us since biblical times; the laws of physics that were applied since day one, still applies today albeit under an engineering umbrella.

Mauritz

I'm not sure that's quite the reason they are perplexed by the lack of a thorough explanation...



IMO the mark of someone with a true mastery of a subject is the ability to distill the information and present the concepts in such a way that a layman such as myself can understand them.

Suggesting that the concepts are too complex for your audience to understand, and that they should find the proof of the concepts through their own sources seems to be contradictory.

If I say the sky is actually green, and that it's too complex for you to understand why it is so, and that furthermore you must go and research to prove me correct through other sources, before you can present a counter argument. Then you would likely consider me to be a rather unhelpful individual who can't back up their position with evidence, since your reality has tended to include a blue sky...
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Old 16-07-2013, 14:51   #125
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Re: If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?

classic post that goes back to the orginal post of the thread
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Old 16-07-2013, 14:59   #126
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Re: If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?

"If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?"

The short answer is: no, but likely a pretty good indicator that you are.........
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Old 16-07-2013, 15:00   #127
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"If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?"

The short answer is: no, but likely a pretty good indicator that you are.........
The I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong approach?
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Old 16-07-2013, 15:03   #128
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Re: If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?

I should add that Admiral is also wrong. I like it therefore it must be wrong. If I think it is funny then it must be Insulting. However experience has proven that if someone disagrees with me they are most certainly wrong. What could be more self evident. I am the captain.
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Old 16-07-2013, 15:18   #129
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Re: If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?

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The I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong approach?
There is that .
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Old 16-07-2013, 15:49   #130
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Don't think it matters what forum ur on, the polarization of the nation and the increased amount of politics in everything we do leads to more confrontation.
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Old 16-07-2013, 16:22   #131
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Re: If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?

Answer to OP's question: sometimes.

There are lots of questions that have more than one right answer. Consider this one: what type of boat should I go cruising in? A question that has lots of "opinion" answers, but no one, simple, reductio ad absurdum one.

Some questions on CF, aren't questions, per se, they're issues, again about which a huge variety of differing of opinions may cluster.

Plus, as people, we mostly have a few pet peeves, and if you get crossways of me on something that is my pet peeve, why you MUST be wrong! And then, you gotta rebut me, right? Anyhow that's what seems to happen, and many of our questions have only opinion answers.

My .02.

Ann
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Old 16-07-2013, 18:19   #132
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Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper View Post
I should add that Admiral is also wrong. I like it therefore it must be wrong. If I think it is funny then it must be Insulting. However experience has proven that if someone disagrees with me they are most certainly wrong. What could be more self evident. I am the captain.
Really, really LMAO!
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Old 16-07-2013, 19:05   #133
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Re: If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?

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I think I have noticed good advice on ages old issues to come more often from the experienced sailors but good ideas on brand new issues to come more often from the inexperienced ones.

So I say listen to everybody then make your own decisions.

b.
Well said, Barnakiel... the older I gets the dumber i feel! Phil
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Old 17-07-2013, 06:41   #134
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Re: If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?

The sky is green because you ate the moldy mushrooms. I learn something new everyday. I got a new perspective on a problem that I have been trying to solve for the last 4 years, today, by someone else who could look at the equation from a different perspective than myself.
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Old 17-07-2013, 06:50   #135
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Re: If I Don't Agree With You am I Therefore wrong?

I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken...
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