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Old 15-11-2013, 11:03   #16
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
In the real world you have to be aware of your surroundings and act accordingly. If you are not the predator, then you are the prey. If you are the prey then you need to have defenses, protective coloration, emit bad smells etc... If you don't, you will get eaten.
Exactly. That's why I "took advantage of holding a CCP" when I walked through the Pioneer Square district of Seattle the other day.

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Old 15-11-2013, 11:39   #17
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

OK, got it, I apologize for my analogy, the original post was a little offensive. So they did something stupid, maybe, possibly there might have been a reason, probably not, but they didn't deserve what happened, no one does.
Good God, reading just a little between the lines, that poor woman had to stay on the boat, watching her husband decompose, lord knows want was done to her as well. I bet her abandoning ship was a form of suicide.
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Old 15-11-2013, 12:08   #18
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

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Let's not get sidetracked with poor analogies. Breathe, calm.


Why folks choose to ignore well known dangerous areas is beyond me, do the cruisers give a reason? Was there some mechanical failure that caused them to hug shore?
We hugged shore ( Mexico) when we were taking on water, but had things fairly under control, could this be the case?

Sometimes it can be trying to be politically correct.
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Old 15-11-2013, 12:31   #19
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

Another tragic murder has occurred among the cruising community. It reflects an increasing reality of cruising in certain areas of the world where Civilization, as we know it, does not exist and anarchy and mayhem prevail among predators who seek easy prey.One can only imagine the mindset of the wife who has seen her husband murdered and in a gasp for self presevation seeks the protection of a liferaft in lieu of a sailable vessel. In recent discussions of this sort, it has been stated repeatedly that it is only naivete among members of our community who continue to sail in these areas and believe it "won't happen to me." This is a dangerous mindset. The world is not how you perceive it, but how it really is. In regards to criticisms of MarkJ and Roverhi, I would like to say that there is a politically correct version of life and one that is based in Reality and Common Sense. Perhaps Mark could have been more sensitive in the way he portayed these unfortunate souls, but his underlying message was correct. And, in the case of Roverhi, his appraisal of the situation, as was Mark's, was correct. In a theoretical world, the way a person dresses should have no impact or relevance to the potential for criminal assault, but in the real world, it is more often than not the deciding factor for the crime. I can assure you, a woman walking through the South Side of Chicago at 1 a.m. with a mini skirt, halter top and 4" heels has the same chance of assault as a cruising boat 1 mile off the coast of Venezuela. You are signaling your innocence and naivete much as a newborn Thompsons gazelle who wanders through a pride of lions. These issues are not going to go away and ,I predict, will continue to escalate as the world's economy and civilization continues to decline. The fact that you have been cruising unmolested for years is no protection for the present and future. My deepest regrets for this unfortunate woman and the hope that her life can once again be normal.
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Old 15-11-2013, 13:28   #20
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I have not been able to find any press reports on tins attack. I
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Old 15-11-2013, 13:33   #21
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
In regards to criticisms of MarkJ and Roverhi, I would like to say that there is a politically correct version of life and one that is based in Reality and Common Sense. Perhaps Mark could have been more sensitive in the way he portayed these unfortunate souls, but his underlying message was correct. And, in the case of Roverhi, his appraisal of the situation, as was Mark's, was correct. In a theoretical world, the way a person dresses should have no impact or relevance to the potential for criminal assault, but in the real world, it is more often than not the deciding factor for the crime. I can assure you, a woman walking through the South Side of Chicago at 1 a.m. with a mini skirt, halter top and 4" heels has the same chance of assault as a cruising boat 1 mile off the coast of Venezuela. You are signaling your innocence and naivete much as a newborn Thompsons gazelle who wanders through a pride of lions. These issues are not going to go away and ,I predict, will continue to escalate as the world's economy and civilization continues to decline. The fact that you have been cruising unmolested for years is no protection for the present and future. My deepest regrets for this unfortunate woman and the hope that her life can once again be normal.
This thread is appalling. None of the analogies presented have been apples-to-apples comparisons. And shame on those of you who suggested that what a woman wears has ANY relationship to her likelihood of being raped. The single greatest marker associated with a likelihood of be raped is BEING FEMALE! The second is being a child of any gender. And that's true globally, as dozens of studies by anthropologists, psychologists, and sociologists have confirmed over the past several decades. A woman or a child perceived as vulnerable is likely to be raped by a man because of the MAN and because of the social conditions (culture) that say rape is a perfectly acceptable thing to do if the woman/child deserves it by wearing the "wrong" thing/being in the "wrong" place/being mouthy/[insert other ignorant, male-privileged, excuse-making here].

I'll grant you that it was a particularly unwise thing to sail in that area--I know that's a dangerous area and I've set foot on a boat exactly once 35 years ago--but as a wannabe cruiser, I read everything about sailing that I can get my hands on.

But making the rape comparison was unbelievably stupid, insensitive, and intellectually lame.
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Old 15-11-2013, 13:53   #22
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

Yea, let's just imprison ALL MEN !!
That ought'a make for a perfect world.

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Old 15-11-2013, 13:57   #23
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

I have no problem with men; I love mine (husband, son, father, brothers, uncles, cousins, etc.)! But people who rape (most are male) are a problem for all of us.
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Old 15-11-2013, 14:00   #24
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

The rape analogy although offensive does have some validity in certain cultural contexts.
Try wearing a mini skirt in Afghanistan, Pakistan, India or any number of other like minded countries. Do not beard the Lion in his den.
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Old 15-11-2013, 14:10   #25
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

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Originally Posted by RedFeather View Post
This thread is appalling and should be closed. None of the analogies presented have been apples-to-apples comparisons. And shame on those of you who suggested that what a woman wears has ANY relationship to her likelihood of being raped. The single greatest marker associated with a likelihood of be raped is BEING FEMALE! The second is being a child of any gender. And that's true globally, as dozens of studies by anthropologists, psychologists, and sociologists have confirmed over the past several decades. A woman or a child perceived as vulnerable is likely to be raped by a man because of the MAN and because of the social conditions (culture) that say rape is a perfectly acceptable thing to do if the woman/child deserves it by wearing the "wrong" thing/being in the "wrong" place/being mouthy/[insert other ignorant, male-privileged, excuse-making here].

I'll grant you that it was a particularly unwise thing to sail in that area--I know that's a dangerous area and I've set foot on a boat exactly once 35 years ago--but as a wannabe cruiser, I read everything about sailing that I can get my hands on.

But making the rape comparison was unbelievably stupid, insensitive, and intellectually lame.
I agree with Red Feather as far as she has taken this, because it really is the responsibility of the perpetrator for his/her actions; and yet... The idea that it is prudent to stay out of dangerous areas is also true. IMO, we are respoonsible for what we suggest on CF.

Now, Mark has seen two (and possibly three) vessels of his acquaintance suffer cruel assaults. And clearly, he wanted/hoped no harm would come to them. I can cut him some slack for judging the imprudent ones, because of his personal circumstances.

As males, most of the CF participants are unlikely to be raped unless in the Armed Forces, in battle and looting situations, or in jail/prisons. The last time I looked at the statistics, one in four women have been raped at least once; often by family members or friends--and that is just how many have been reported. So, guys, please think twice before suggesting that women are oversensitive to the issue.

And yet, IMO, it pays to be prudent. And that means avoiding Venezuela now; and it also means learning where (if anywhere) it is safe to wear provocative clothing. We do not have to like this, but, to me it makes sense. Although we like to pretend we belong to an egalitarian society, women are always at a disadvantage in a male dominated society, especially so where women are undervalued, often seen only as sexual objects, not as people. Honestly, as suggested above, cultivating your situational awareness may well save your skin someday.

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Old 15-11-2013, 14:11   #26
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

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The rape analogy although offensive does have some validity in certain cultural contexts.
Try wearing a mini skirt in Afghanistan, Pakistan, India or any number of other like minded countries. Do not beard the Lion in his den.
OT, my apologies: That's a red herring. By far, most of the people raped in Pakistan are veil-wearing young girls. Rape is common-place in Pakistan and vastly underreported. Here's just one story, but there are dozens of articles like this one and check the U.N. for more info.
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Old 15-11-2013, 14:13   #27
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This entire thread need to be closed.

Shame on CF for allowing this.
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Old 15-11-2013, 14:17   #28
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

If you guys want the thread closed, the thing to do is click on the little red triangle with the "!" inside, at the bottom left corner of each post, and report it to the Moderators. They will make the decision. Just remember that what little that is good and correct will then also be closed.
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Old 15-11-2013, 14:23   #29
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

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If you guys want the thread closed, the thing to do is click on the little red triangle with the "!" inside, at the bottom left corner of each post, and report it to the Moderators. They will make the decision. Just remember that what little that is good and correct will then also be closed.
And as such, I rescind my request to close this thread.
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Old 15-11-2013, 14:25   #30
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Re: Idiots try to die off venuzeala

I don't think the thread is at fault at all. MarkJ makes a good point, and while I don't take on offense to his manner, others might. I'd also like to point out that Mark has "walked the walk" and traveled in a convoy through some pretty bad waters. He made every effort to prevent a boarding by pirates and is perhaps a little critical of those that don't take similar precautions.

Gently put, don't go in harm's way, unless you are prepared for the consequences.
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