I need Canadian's help!

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by NorthernSeaWolf

I'm not against paying for charts given the vast coastline and the fact there are more pressing issues that the government needs to focus its attention. I do, however, think the charges could be reeled in some...it is expensive if you're in need of multiple maps (which is inevitable), and it seems unlikely those fees are simply covering expenses: $600 for the east side of Vancouver Island? Really?

Use raster charts - my preference.

PAC02 - Vancouver Island East

CDN $174.95

CHS - PAC02

The price of 9 paper charts.

[NorthernSeaWolf]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Use raster charts - my preference.
The price of 9 paper charts.

Thanks...that is a little less salty - I was looking at this:
CHS - PAC-A
$599.95

I like paper charts though.... actually, I love them!

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Use raster charts - my preference.

PAC02 - Vancouver Island East

CDN $174.95

CHS - PAC02

The price of 9 paper charts.

I just moved up here. So I get this $200 CD. What then?

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I just moved up here. So I get this $200 CD. What then?

It works well with OpenCPN.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by NorthernSeaWolf

Thanks...that is a little less salty - I was looking at this:
CHS - PAC-A
$599.95

I like paper charts though.... actually, I love them!

I much prefer paper charts (and collect antique ones).

Why do you need ENCs?

[NorthernSeaWolf]

Originally Posted by jackdale

I much prefer paper charts (and collect antique ones).

Why do you need ENCs?

Love the antique ones!

I don't "need"

But... MacENC is so versatile and really manages to utilize the vector format in a user-friendly platform.

[deblen]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I just moved up here. So I get this $200 CD. What then?

You then spend $1000 on a laptop plus a raster chart nav program. Len

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by deblen

You then spend $1000 on a laptop plus a raster chart nav program. Len

OpenCPN is open-source software - free.

[henklor]

Done. Signed the petition.

What is the issue in Canada is that our Government had contracted a few companies to distribute (and make lots of many) of these charts.
As tax payers we have paid already for these charts. I have no issue paying for charts, but the outrages amounts that they are charging now is the problem. I can buy a road map for all of Canada for 24.95 at the gas station. This is a reasonable amount considering the cost of printing, shipping etc.
But 5K for all of the Canadian Navigational Charts (in electronic format) is just over the top.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by henklor

Done. Signed the petition.

What is the issue in Canada is that our Government had contracted a few companies to distribute (and make lots of many) of these charts.
As tax payers we have paid already for these charts. I have no issue paying for charts, but the outrages amounts that they are charging now is the problem. I can buy a road map for all of Canada for 24.95 at the gas station. This is a reasonable amount considering the cost of printing, shipping etc.
But 5K for all of the Canadian Navigational Charts (in electronic format) is just over the top.

You can buy a chart of all of Vancouver Island for $20.00. I would not use to navigate my way around the Island.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by henklor

But 5K for all of the Canadian Navigational Charts (in electronic format) is just over the top.

As I mentioned earlier, I am warming to the idea, but logic like the above isn't winning me over. Who here NEEDS every Canadian chart in their possession? I expect the average Canadian cruiser hasn't spent more than $300 for the charts they actually use. Not a huge hit for a yacht-owner.

I know that there's a long-established rule in the US government that any public document must be made available for free (or something like this) so they have long ago accounted for that cost.

(Also ...Switzerland?? How many different marine charts do they distribute - two?? All the listed example countries on the petition, with the exception of the US, have miniscule coastlines compared to Canada.)

Asking seriously - does anyone know how many Canadian charts are sold/downloaded, and the annual cost or budget for cartography? This forum isn't exactly pro big-government .... is everyone willing to sign on without knowing the costs involved?

[Mike OReilly]

In recent times I’ve sailed through the Canadian side of Lake Superior, Huron/North Channel, St. Clair River, Lake St. Clair, Detroit River, Erie and Ontario, including the 1000 Islands. This year I’m heading out the St. Lawrence (Neptune willing), to the west coast of Newfoundland.

I’ve begged, borrowed and improvised my acquisition of most needed paper charts. And I’ve passed on those I no longer need to other people (some here on the forums). If I had purchased official new charts for all the ones I think I need (which is not all possible charts that I could purchase — just the ones I need), my bill would have easily run into the thousands of dollars. So for some of us, the cost is a real factor.

However, it’s not the fact of paying for them that irks me. It is the double-taxation that all user-fees represent which I object to. User-fees like tolls and specific service fees, disproportionally hurt poor folk.

My view is, if the production of nautical charts is a public good (which I believe it is), then it should be paid for by taxes. If it is a private good then the government should get out of the way and let the free market reign.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

However, it’s not the fact of paying for them that irks me. It is the double-taxation that all user-fees represent which I object to. User-fees like tolls and specific service fees, disproportionally hurt poor folk.

My view is, if the production of nautical charts is a public good (which I believe it is), then it should be paid for by taxes. If it is a private good then the government should get out of the way and let the free market reign.

I'd agree more if we weren't talking about yachting. I'm not saying that every cruiser is wealthy, but to sail/cruise you have to be in a relatively good position - a degree of financial independence, free time, health. Poor people aren't in need of nautical charts, generally, and I can't imagine that anyone was prevented from boating or cruising because they couldn't afford a chart.

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I'd agree more if we weren't talking about yachting. I'm not saying that every cruiser is wealthy, but to sail/cruise you have to be in a relatively good position - a degree of financial independence, free time, health. Poor people aren't buying nautical charts, generally, and I can't imagine that anyone was prevented from boating or cruising because they couldn't afford a chart.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you on this.. Maybe around Toronto what you say true.

However there are parts of our country where a decent boat can be bought for $2000 (probably cheaper). I can guarntee that the cost of charts is a big consideration for people buying boats at this price point. So much so, that many probably go without charts. So yes, they aren't prevented from boating. However, safety and protection of the environment could be enhanced by providing charts for free!

If that fact alone (increased safety and environmental protections) does not convince you, then I'm afraid nothing will.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by travellerw

I wholeheartedly disagree with you on this.. Maybe around Toronto what you say true.

However there are parts of our country where a decent boat can be bought for $2000 (probably cheaper). I can guarntee that the cost of charts is a big consideration for people buying boats at this price point. So much so, that many probably go without charts. So yes, they aren't prevented from boating. However, safety and protection of the environment could be enhanced by providing charts for free!

If that fact alone (increased safety and environmental protections) does not convince you, then I'm afraid nothing will.

That's kind of far-fetched. As I'm sure you know, the boat purchase is but one part of the equation. There's the accessories - life jackets and other mandated safety equipment. Anchor. Cooler. Camping gear. Clothing. Tools. Books. Lessons. PCOC. After that there's storage and ramp fees, gas (boat & vehicle), insurance, annual motor service, the occasional unplanned repair, replacements and upgrades. Spending maybe $40 - $80 on charts for your home waters, that will serve for 4 years or more... I don't think that's a deal-breaker.

Re electronic charts - you're going to be paying $300+ for a computer or tablet to run them on. Plus the special 12v charger adaptor.

So you're not winning me with the poverty angle. (said the guy whose current boat wasn't that much more than $2k to buy )