I need Canadian's help!

[Mike OReilly]

The fact that we pay twice for our nautical charts is simply a policy choice. Governments make these choices all the time. Many jurisdictions use tolls on their highways, put in user-fees for recreation services, and charge extra for all manner of things from border patrols to airport improvements. These are all forms of double taxation — or just simply taxation.

Personally, I would rather live in a country that taxes appropriately and delivers useful services to all its citizens, without the distortion of all these user-fees.

[jackdale]

FYI

Since January 1, 2017, all official digital charts produced by the Canadian Hydrographic Service (CHS) have been available online. They are no longer distributed on CD.

CHS - Digital charts

[GRIT]

[QUOTE=travellerw;2389273]Please provide a source to backup this claim!


For anyone wondering our actual laws, Jackdale is correct. You can see the actual law here at this link. Scroll down to section 4 and section 5.
Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995

However, those laws were written in 1995 and I beleive would be considered antiquated if tested in a court of law.

*************************************************

Yes, but subsection 2 says you don't need the charts if you're familiar with the area. As the Coast Guard related to me, by saying "if you've been there before".

In any case, if they're free, or at least cheaper than they are now, we're all more likely to have them aboard. Paper or electronic.

Cheers.
Paul.

[eheffa]

I use Rose Point Coastal Explorer as my primary source of electronic plotting & planning. It's excellent.

(I still have paper charts for all local BC Waters.

I paid for my Canadian electronic charts up front as a supplement to the free US charts but still have to pay $99.00 USD annually to RosePoint to keep them updated. (Due to Canadian Hydrographic Services charging them. ) Meanwhile all US charts are updated for free in perpetuity.

I think this is pretty silly.

Please Canada, release these into the public domain.

- evan

[Midnight Son]

Signed, thank you for setting this up.

[rognvald]

This has been an interesting discussion with some valuable feedback from our Canadian friends and neighbors. I am currently in the process of ordering Canadian charts and coast pilots for our proposed trip North into the beautiful waters of Canada and find it quite expensive to be navigationally legal within Canadian waters especially when you are traveling considerable distances. Politics aside-- is it a benefit or a detriment for a country to encourage foreign travel? Is it a benefit or detriment to encourage travel by native Canadians within provinces? Does travel create economic opportunity for local businesses of which they would not have had if travel were limited or non-existent? Is the benefit to the government in the sale of nautical publications greater for the public good than robust and steady tourism? Does the government encourage tourism or damper tourism by adding obstacles to foreign/domestic travel? These are decisions made at the top of the food chain and reflect a government's stance on increased tourism. Chicago, which has one of the highest murder rates in the USA also is one of the top tourist destinations in the US since our bankrupt city has promoted tourism both nationally/internationally and is perhaps one of the reasons the city has not filed for bankruptcy. I think Traveler has made a good point and it would definitely encourage nautical tourism within the provinces of Canada if the cost of legality would be more reasonable which would be a win/win for Canada and its merchants. And again, as here in the US, how long will it take the wheel to turn? I think we all know the answer. Good luck and safe sailing.

[eheffa]

Hi,

You may want to check out Rose Point Coastal Explorer to gain access to electronic Canadian charts.

That app allows you access to the entire set of Canadian Hydrographic Charts for significantly less than buying them directly from CHS.

( BTW I have no connection RosePoint, except for my status as a happy user/customer. )

-evan

[Elie]

Interesting point made by Rognval pertaining to indirect benefits in tourism by providing free charts to every body. And I would agree, that these charts are horribly expensives for the common yachtman. In fact this pricing reflect the fact that the real customers are commercial marine travelers. Once this admitted, the tourism economic argument has to consider its very small potential, compared to the high cost of maintaining and updating a very large database of charts. Canada has 1/10th of the USA population and ever smaller proportion of visiting sailors. But a larger coastline to survey sometines far north where it become very costly to do anything. Canadian yachting infrastructure is small and the sailing season very short at places. One may wonder of the real cost/benefit to provide for such a small potential of tourism.
But when we yachtmen travel abroad we have to endure all sort of tarifs and trouble that may be perceived as exagerated. Anchoring off some cities in Croatia cost 100 euros a night, on your own hook in a bay!. We pay a significant user fee in the Bahamas, even when you just pass by. Let alone using the Panama canal. And what to say about Florida (and many other States) restrictions on anchoring in many places with the local autorities from sherrif all other abondant and overlaping law enforcement autorities that tend to complicate beyond reason the yachting activity for the foreigners. They have to get a cruising permit, and report at every port to the autorities, and the risk of a mandatory $10000 fine from US Custom, Immigration or US Coastguard is very real for any perceived offense. These too are limiting factors for the yachting activities.
So Canadian 'abuse' of charts costs, but in every country, some abuses seems to be the norm.
But at least if I had to chose, I would rather pay my charts, but have free Canadian medicare, including while traveling anywhere in the world.

[Mike OReilly]

Like I say, it’s a policy choice Canada makes, just like putting tolls on roads or charging admitance to public museums. It is a form of double-taxation that each jurisdiction chooses to use (or not). I simply object to paying twice for the same thing.

I really doubt the revenue generated by recreational boaters makes much of a difference to the budget of CHS for providing chart services. There aren’t nearly enough of us. Nor do I think making the charts “free” the way NOAA does would make much difference on boater tourism. If you’ve decided to sail to Canada, I really doubt the added cost of charts is going to deter you. Likewise, free charts aren’t going to convince a bunch of boaters to suddenly head north.

For me, it’s just the principle of double-payment.

[JohnSilver]

Yes, I signed the petition! Since we sold our old Morgan, we've been cruising the Thousand Islands in the St. Lawrence R. in a C&C27. If and when you run aground here, it's solid granite! Shoals are numerous and some of the islands are underwater right now. Charts are essential, and I don't mind paying for them. However, digital charts don't cost the govt. after the initial costs of loading them, so they should be made available, albeit with a questionair to keep track of charts most often used, and who's using them.

[Adrian NAMT]

Signed Thanks for your post

I think - but am not certain - that as with Stats Can data the government sought to max income from the sale of charts and reduce government deficits. The data collection and maintenance is paid from taxes. "Users" pay to get it for their "personal & commercial" use - like paying a toll on a highway or bridge that was fully paid for years ago.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by JohnSilver

Charts are essential, and I don't mind paying for them. However, digital charts don't cost the govt. after the initial costs of loading them, so they should be made available, albeit with a questionair to keep track of charts most often used, and who's using them.

There's work required to update and release digital charts, and there's the infrastructure (eg a website) for distributing them.

(I like the idea of a questionnaire)

Originally Posted by Adrian NAMT

The data collection and maintenance is paid from taxes. "Users" pay to get it for their "personal & commercial" use - like paying a toll on a highway or bridge that was fully paid for years ago.

Not the best example. Bridges and roads have ongoing maintenance; tolls are one way of making them more "user pay" as opposed to all coming out of general tax.

So, I'm warming to the idea of leaning on our federal government to distribute the digital ones at no charge, but let's not forget that there will be a (very small) tax hit.

[hpeer]

Him, a couple of thoughts.

1. Canada would need the charts for their military and government vessels. So the only extra cost is in the printing and distribution.
2. They have "return red" many old large scale charts,nthe you don't maintain them anymore.
3. Many of the charts I use are far older than I. One has a note something like "Data from French chart of 1887" so it's not like they are off setting ongoing surveys.
4. The charts cost me the same as Exxon Mobil. Who is disadvantaged by that?
5. What is the governments obligation to foster the health and welfare of its citizens?
6. Anyone here ever look at the Labrador or Baffin Island charts? It's not a bloody chart. It's a record of where the survey vessel went. Outside that narrow path thar be dragons!

Good idea, I'm signing.

Let's get real, it's a money making deal, an opportunity to skin the user.

[NorthernSeaWolf]

I'm not against paying for charts given the vast coastline and the fact there are more pressing issues that the government needs to focus its attention. I do, however, think the charges could be reeled in some...it is expensive if you're in need of multiple maps (which is inevitable), and it seems unlikely those fees are simply covering expenses: $600 for the east side of Vancouver Island? Really?

[Flatfoot-Rogue]

Done. I always thought that it was a little off that if I didn't want to shell out cash I had to use US charts for the pacific northwest for the Vancouver Victoria Pacific Coast areas