here's a rant for you all to discuss... brokers. Yuck.

[alex_sauvage]

[QUOTE=F.
As for dating the equipment you have obviously a very understanding wife or never owned a sailboat. My wife has no idea how much the big ticket items cost on our yacht as those receipts all vanish into a black hole and I have no idea when I purchased them.
Even if you do not know much keep the silly questions to yourself until you are at least onboard the sailboat.

Cheers[/QUOTE]

What that has to do with your wife? I am not asking her, I am asking broker whose JOB is to sell the boat. If he cannot be bothered to put all relevent information into the ad, he is not doing his JOB...you know that thing that he is being payed for. And if you as a surveyor think that questions regarding standing rigging age or instruments are silly, maybe you should look for another job..a broker maybe?

[LoudMusic]

It sounds like there might be a market for a really good boat broker. I wonder if real estate agents could make the transition.

[TJ D]

If you don't mind-what kind of a budget are you working with? A buyer's broker may do you a world of good. Brokers are a lot better about answering other brokers than they are normal folks who are making inquiries.


Unfortunately, some of the earlier comments are right about brokers not answering inquiries as well as they should. This comes from dealing with HUGE numbers of tire-kickers, mostly. Laziness may also be a factor.



Anyway, if you're at the lower end of the market, be aware that the time spent/commission on these boats is really out of whack for brokers.



No excuse for not answering, but at the sub-100k mark or so, that's just the reality of the business.



I don't think that it's fair (as some do) to paint all brokers with the same brush, however. They're just people, same as you.

[Mike OReilly]

I’m betting the OP is looking in the lower end of the market. The simple reality is that in this zone there isn’t a lot of money in it for brokers. It can take as much, or even more effort, to sell a low-end boat compared to a high end. So, like any successful business, they devote the resources appropriate to the expected income.

This is not really a criticism of brokers; brokers also have to make a living. I just wish brokers who can’t devote the necessary time to the sale simply choose NOT to list low-end boats.

When I was buying I found most brokers to be useless at best, and an outright barrier at worst. I was lied to more than once, which cost me both significant $$ and time. Mostly I was faced with a gate keeper who provided little value.

I strongly suggest the OP focus on boats being listed by owners. Owners are (usually) motivated to sell, have the information you need as the possible buyer, and don’t have to account for their time when making the sale.

[rourkeh]

The reason most yacht brokers encountered by the buyers from this forum are useless is simple economics. A broker who lists an old sailboat for $100,000 is going to talk to 50 people who are looking at 20 different boats before they buy anything.. They will ask dozens of questions most of which the broker will have to contact the owner to get a response on for the info. All of these emails and phone calls are a lot of work, even more so if the listing is in the top 10% in price and condition. Then the broker has to show the boat to a dozen "prospective" buyers and deal with the buyers broker as well most times. At the end when the sale is closed and they have done all the paperwork the $10,000 commission is divided up 4 ways between the listing broker, selling broker and both of the companies they work for. So the listing broker who did all the work gets $2,500 for his efforts. While the $100,000 the buyer just spent represents a huge investment to him because he only makes $60,000 a year and had to save 10 years to buy this boat it is not a lot of income to the selling broker. Most of the brokers out there that have listings under $200,000 make about $40,000 a year and list cheap boats because they can not get the big dollar listings.
When I was in the business I did not list anything below $500,000 for these very same economics, to me the amount of work involved is the same if I list and sell a $100,000 boat or one for $3 million.
So before you throw all brokers under the bus try looking at the economics of the situation. And if you really want to get information about a boat you are considering the best way to get what you need is to pester the **** out of the listing broker, call them 3 times a day and send a ton of emails. Don't let up. It drives them nuts and they will respond just to get rid of you.

[Scott Berg]

My experience has varied from very good to very poor; markets matter as well; far more good brokers in Ft. Lauderdale, San Diego, Newport, and Annapolis than elsewhere. We have had outstanding service from Bollman Yachts years ago in Lauderdale, from Bayport in Chester on the Chesapeake, and from David Walters in Annapolis. YMMV of course but I've found the services of a good broker invaluable for both me and my customers.

[TJ D]

^^
Spot on. The cheaper the boat, the more work to sell.


My brokerage once listed an old, derelict Islander for $5k as a favor to a recently deceased friend's family. We had about 60 listings at the time, maybe 100k average asking price.


That Islander received more inquiries than all other listings combined. It was totally crazy. And the questions! I could have easily had 2 guys working 100 hours a week to field all the questions.


Yeah, we created a copy and paste email to send to 'buyers', and that was all they got. Some may object to this, contending that if we had to devote 3000 man hours to selling this boat, that's our job. So be it. I don't think that they'd be willing to work for the hourly rate that works out to.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Spot on. The cheaper the boat, the more work to sell. ...

Exactly. Brokerages are businesses. If they want to stay in business they have to devote the appropriate resources based on the expect revenue. One can argue brokerages should take a the long view, creating a customer for life. Maybe… but that’s a dubious way to run a business like this.

But the flip side is potential buyers absolutely require significant time from the seller. Someone buying at $100k (or less) may not be a lot for the brokerage, but it is likely one of the largest purchases the buyer has ever made. They have a lot of legitimate questions and needs that must be filled. But instead they are faced with a broker who is the absolute gate keeper, and yet this person can’t afford to fulfill the possible buyer's needs. It’s a lose-lose proposition.

I get that some brokers are pressured into taking on boats they don’t really want to list. Part of that pressure comes from the fact that brokers control the most important marketing tool: Yachtworld. If private sellers were allowed to list on Yachtworld, I believe that would remove some of the pressure on brokers to take on these lose-lose sales. And everyone would be happier.

[TJ D]

Mike,



I think you're right about the need for an alternative to Yachtworld. Something like a fee-based MLS for sellers. Selling your boat? Put up, say, 1-2% of the asking price, non-refundable, up front, and off you go! Buyers and sellers connect directly. The lower end of the market is served much better, and commissions are far lower for the seller.



Then, we'll get to read rants on here about how all boat sellers are a bunch of shiftless scumbags! Everyone wins-even the brokers get entertained...



Fine idea, it really is.

[DEAN2140]

I have purchased six boats with a broker and sold five of them without. I think you are right about it being a hobby business for some of them. This may seem unfair, but a lot of people who "work" in the boat business are border line unemployed.....by choice. Its always a pleasant surprise to find someone in the business who is professional, courteous and returns your calls.

[redhead]

Several years ago while searching for our next boat we found a prospect in San Francisco that looked good enough for a trip out there from NYC. We spoke to the broker who recommended hotels, said he would pick us up at the airport, etc. We bought the tickets at premium prices/non refundable due to short notice and got ready to go.

On the night before our early morning flight I checked emails and found the broker had sent a message at about 10pm Eastern time that the boat was sold, full stop. No explanations and most importantly, no phone call. If I hadn't checked emails we would have boarded that flight the next a.m. for a totally waste of time as well as money. We were out big bucks (for us) anyway. Not to mention the disappointment.

Now I used to sell real estate, so I'm normally pretty sympathetic to the the woes of any broker selling anything. But this rat didn't have the morals to pick up the phone and deliver the bad news himself. What a wuss.

I will always approach boat brokers with this in the front of my mind for the rest of my life. Once burned twice shy.

(Even so, we bought the boat we're on now, so happy ending anyway...)

[Cadence]

I'd read the brokers listing. If they have seen one boat in their life you can tell. I would bet the well written ads will get you a response. The others may be, throw as much $hit on the wall as you can and some will stick.

[Peregrine1983]

As others have said, I assume you are someone shopping the lower end of the market. I've been there, shopping for boats sub $50k.

My advice is to call or send an email saying you and your wife will be in the area on X date to see boats and would like to set up a few minutes to see X boat. Mentioning your wife is coming will make you sound more legit IMHO.

Emailing and leaving messages asking specific questions about the boat and asking for additional photos is unlikely to get you any response.

Just give them a date when you'll be there, set up an appointment, and go see it. Ask the questions then and take your own photos.

[14murs14]

One other thing I discovered is that it's often cheaper to pay a surveyor to do a 1 hour "walk through" of a promising boat with lots of pictures, then it is to fly out and look yourself, especially if it's just for one boat. They'll take all the unflattering pictures a broker listing won't have, they'll be as likely to catch anything serious as you would be on an initial walk-through, if not more so, and if the boat sells unexpectedly it generally costs little or nothing to cancel the visit vice the non-refundable airfare. I was comfortable enough doing this that I made an offer based on this visit alone for my current boat which was in Martinique while I was in Annapolis. With an accepted offer I was able to fly down a couple weeks later and do my own inspection along with a full survey. Plus I knew the quality of the surveyors work from the initial inspection, so that was helpful as well.

[Biomed]

May I join you in your rant? We are overseas and looking for a liveaboard in a price range brokers should go to war for. We know our way around with boats, having been on the water for decades.

A look at a likely boat in the USA takes us on a flight from London to wherever. So we rely on ads with specs and pictures to select likely candidates. We have been told by " professional, bonded" brokers, that boats were GRP, when they were steel; had one engine when there were two; cabin numbers did not tally; even the size was incorrect.
Not to speak of equipment that was absent or malfunctioning, accident histories, very serious engine issues, leaks, paint over rust jobs, liens, and boats that were not at all seaworthy and potential death traps on an extended voyage.

Add: broker never seen the boat and waffling on about the woodwork, curtains and more of the same. Service history is more often than not a thumb suck job with no documents to back it up where we were told that a full traceable documented history was available. Lube testing shows the very different reality.

But best of all, is the " standard offer" we need to sign in a hurry. This rubbish also includes the" standard clause" that the ads and subsequent contacts were not intended and should not be construed as an enticement to buy the thing! Well, when there are buttons to be clicked on, " to make an offer", this is pretty rich. The deposit asked for, to allow us to view the boat is normally around 10%. That's a couple of 100k USD.
But fear not, it is covered by the bond. Which is -I believe- limited to about 25000 USD. To cover ALL deposits for offers to purchase!

We now ask to be placed in funds to cover our costs, should the representations be materially different from the reality. The broker's reaktion is invariably priceless and reverts back to " we told you nothing, believe nothing we said, it's just white noise"...

Never seen such drivel. Thanks to this forum, we have been educated in the Wiley Ways of Brokers. We owe you guys big time.
Brokers limit us buyers to shop for boats through them, as they are the listing agents. Please don't ask for my sympathy, when I contact the you, the broker for a viewing, or further information. It is the job you chose to do, and what you purport to the seller you'll do for his money.
If it is not worth your while, don't list the boat or go flip burgers.
Not much respect nor use for that "professional" here. Hope to meet one who does what it says on his tin. Fair winds!!