Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-12-2015, 14:56   #31
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,454
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

Yes, on a boat like the Catalina 22 you should definitely use both sails otherwise it will be tough unless the wind is blowing hard enough.

If it is blowing hard and you use just the jib, you could get into trouble because you wouldn't be able to tack.

If you had just the main up and you are not experienced, you would probably end up in irons not being able to get out (you have to ease the main and turn the rudder)

But IF you really want to get into sailing and be really good at it, go racing as the skipper on your own boat!

Check the mast rotation on these boats, check the mast prebend (which is somewhat disguised because the mainsheet bends the mast also), check the skippers position and the spreader rake which affects prebend. There are other things like rudder rake, mast rake, batten thickness/shape, and rudder alignment ...

On these boats, the sail shape (and the sails you buy) is determined by your weight and the conditions. The boats weigh approx. 165 lbs.

You might think this is simple because there is only one sail, but it is anything but. As you can see, there is quite a bit of difference since they are so spread out

I believe a good use A Cat goes for around 20K

https://vimeo.com/139221229
__________________

__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2015, 15:35   #32
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,058
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark rocco mont View Post
So i went to ASA over the summer, read and watched many DVD's and books...just bought a 22ft Catalina....went out on the boat twice with the person i bought her from who has showed me a thing or three...he has a captain license... question if i were to sail with just one sail which would it be ..the main or the jib ? just until i feel comfortable...thank you all in advance mark rocco
I went back to your original, depends on your point of sail, one two or both.
Get someone to go with you with some experience.

As far as roller furling, on that boat. To be blunt you are pissing away money.
__________________

__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2015, 03:44   #33
Registered User
 
Ribbit's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 655
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Right Stu, kiss principal.

Have you ever heard of a sailboat that came with just a jib?
The Dhow, and a Viking Long Boat fast running with the sail fore and aft rather than across the boat (what the dragon mouth at the bow was there to facilitate - it wasn't just decoration, it's how they were faster than most boats around at the time, on all points of the wind, and pretty much impossible to catch when chased, there being many accounts of their escape speed from the period), similar to a Dhow.

There are many other examples, and earlier examples too (such as the carbon dated at circa 1,500 BC boat found in England, which was originally thought to be Viking).

A Junk Rig might well qualify as a variant as well.
__________________
Ribbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2015, 06:38   #34
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,454
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribbit View Post
The Dhow, and a Viking Long Boat fast running with the sail fore and aft rather than across the boat (what the dragon mouth at the bow was there to facilitate - it wasn't just decoration, it's how they were faster than most boats around at the time, on all points of the wind, and pretty much impossible to catch when chased, there being many accounts of their escape speed from the period), similar to a Dhow.

There are many other examples, and earlier examples too (such as the carbon dated at circa 1,500 BC boat found in England, which was originally thought to be Viking).

A Junk Rig might well qualify as a variant as well.
The point was that a sailboat with just a jib (or similarly placed sail) is not going to point as compared to a sailboat with just a main.

Just last weekend I was out sailing. Wind N 16-17 knots, waves 2'-3'

There were 3 or 4 guys on a 7.9 S2 that decided to sail with just the jib. We ended up on a port tack sailing pretty close to the wind. (upwind) I had both main and jib up. They got out before me having motored all the way.

I passed them after they raised sail. They were blown sideways way off the wind and almost ended up in some jetty sized rocks near shore as they couldn't make headway into the wind.

A 7.9 S2 should easily out point me on my Bristol 27 with it's longer waterline and deeper keel.

I sailed to windward normally.....due to having the mainsail up. If I'd had just the main up, I would have pointed just as high or higher but would have been sailing slower. My boat is slow enough as it is so I run all sails most of the time
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2015, 06:49   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: North Carolina
Boat: Seaward 22
Posts: 691
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

Regardless of the route you go with the sails....keep an anchor ready to deploy on short notice. Currents can be tough on the ICW and with only 1 sail you will likely not be able to overcome an adverse current.
__________________
ohdrinkboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-02-2016, 18:34   #36
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,454
Re: first solo sail on the ICW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
If you have to do any upwind work, the jib only is the way to go.

This advice seems questionable.

I'm thinking the reason they designed the Laser and the A Class Catamaran with just the mainsail rather than just the jib speaks volumes

The new A Class Catamaran was again designed with just a mainsail for all points of sail and still seems to sail rather well upwind.

Not sure how it would do with just a jib for upwind work though.

https://vimeo.com/139221229
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-02-2016, 23:13   #37
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,447
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

Well, here we go again...

I owned and sailed a Cat 22 for seven years, sailing (racing and daysailing) mostly on SF bay. Did some trailer based cruises... channel islands, Monterrey bay, Straits of Georgia, and so on. Did lots of miles, and on SF bay, lots in fairly strong winds. It was a period of intense learning, and a certain amount of terror

In my personal experience, the Cat 22 sailed poorly to windward with main alone, but it would do it. In light airs, sailing to windward with jib alone (we didn't have a genoa until near the end of my ownership) it would not point well, and tacking was questionable at best. But, once the apparent wind got up to 10-12 knots, things got a LOT better. In fact,, it would point within a few degrees of what it would do with both sails... just not quite as fast. In stronger winds, it would sail to windward on the jib quite well... far better than on the main alone. It would tack briskly if you didn't dawdle.

The reason, i believe, is that these flat-bottomed boats generate weather helm rapidly as the boat heels, even with jib alone. That tendency offsets the general unbalance of having all the sail area forward of the keel's CLR, and the helm was pretty well balanced. And heel she would...

All the references to racing cats and other boats that are NOt Catalina 22s are interesting, but not very relevant. The OP wanted to know about HIS boat unless I misread his questions.

Having said all that, the boat did sail better with both sails (obviously), and the OP should quickly get over the fear of using them both... and he will. They are fun boats, not the latest design by far, but competent and rewarding to sail.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2016, 04:48   #38
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,454
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, here we go again...

I owned and sailed a Cat 22 for seven years, sailing (racing and daysailing) mostly on SF bay. Did some trailer based cruises... channel islands, Monterrey bay, Straits of Georgia, and so on. Did lots of miles, and on SF bay, lots in fairly strong winds. It was a period of intense learning, and a certain amount of terror

In my personal experience, the Cat 22 sailed poorly to windward with main alone, but it would do it. In light airs, sailing to windward with jib alone (we didn't have a genoa until near the end of my ownership) it would not point well, and tacking was questionable at best. But, once the apparent wind got up to 10-12 knots, things got a LOT better. In fact,, it would point within a few degrees of what it would do with both sails... just not quite as fast. In stronger winds, it would sail to windward on the jib quite well... far better than on the main alone. It would tack briskly if you didn't dawdle.

The reason, i believe, is that these flat-bottomed boats generate weather helm rapidly as the boat heels, even with jib alone. That tendency offsets the general unbalance of having all the sail area forward of the keel's CLR, and the helm was pretty well balanced. And heel she would...

All the references to racing cats and other boats that are NOt Catalina 22s are interesting, but not very relevant. The OP wanted to know about HIS boat unless I misread his questions.

Having said all that, the boat did sail better with both sails (obviously), and the OP should quickly get over the fear of using them both... and he will. They are fun boats, not the latest design by far, but competent and rewarding to sail.

Jim
Nice explanation Jim, but any sailor with experience knows that if you are going to have only one sail on a sloop rigged boat for all conditions it would be the mainsail. (the OP was asking which sail if only one)

How are you going to turn the boat into the wind with just a jib? (at low or zero speed) You cannot, the wind will blow you off. I'm sure you know this from having balanced out your boat while heaving too.

You don't need to sail offshore to learn this though

Example, shortly after this discussion, I sailed out on a brisk fall day. The wind was maybe 17 knots plus (N-NNE) with good size waves having built up coming down the bay directly into the mouth of the creek

I shut the motor down early and sailed out which took forever because the tide was coming in fast also.

In the mean time, these 4 other guys on their Columbia 26 motored out. We waved and were happy to be going out.

When they got out while they were getting knocked around by the waves they raised their jib and took off! Problem was they started getting blown back toward land. They had already gotten passed the port jetty but now were being blown toward some other rocks. Their heading was maybe WSW by that time.

I'm sailing with both main and jib on a heading of about NW without a problem. I set the autopilot then had to climb back and get the engine raised and tied up. It's an outboard thing and part of the process on a $2,000.00 boat.

All this time I was watching them in case they wanted help. Finally they lower sail and motored back out in the bay a bit to get round the jetty and back in they went.

Had they raised the main alone they could have made progress into the wind but it would have been slower that main and jib

If they didn't have an engine, their boat would have been on the beach or in the rocks because like some others on here, they didn't know which sail to use if they were only going to use one sail in that situation.

At the least, they could have motor sailed into the wind with the main, but they tried that with the jib and continued to get blown off their heading.

When racing small boats without engines, you get put in situations where to have to maneuver at both high and low speeds in a crowd of other boats.

On the starting line, small boats tend to crowd the line. There is no where to go. You must be able to move the boat port and starboard (and sometimes in reverse) to avoid hitting other boats and put your self in a decent starting position while at the same time NOT crossing the line. You may have to hold your boat almost still for a minute or two in winds from 4-18 knots depending

This teaches you lots and you can do it near shore. You don't even need to cross an ocean to learn it..............

My last racing beach cat was main only with spinnaker. I later bought an optional jib for distance which wasn't legal for buoy racing. This guy has his boards up because he is playing around. Not trying to point etc

https://www.google.com/search?q=nacr...DnzbBbtE4_M%3A
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2016, 05:26   #39
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,454
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

These are the second generation Nacra F-17's Jim. Note the curved boards and "wave piercing" bows. Also note, nobody has a reef in their main which is because there aren't any reef points. You have to adjust the rig (rake, prebend, thicker battens/batten tension, mast rotation, etc)

They also converted them to a two man boat and added the jib. I think I heard they might be used in the Olympics but I could be wrong on that.

I know this isn't REAL sailing since you can see land, but you still learn how to move the boat around a bit.

At least enough to get to the windward mark and back down to the downwind mark.

Also, I noticed there is a 69 year old guy still racing A Cats on their website!

__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2016, 18:16   #40
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,454
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

One more A Class Video that even an old monohull sailor might enjoy.

This young guy from the Netherlands (NED 007) is trying to win the World A Class Championship over old guy Australia's Glen Ashby (AUS 1) who also sailed with Team New Zealand in the last Americas Cup.

BTW, a world class top of the line 18' A Class Catamaran usually weighs around 165 lbs which is the minimum allowed by the rules.

http://www.usaca.info/

Is this the future of Cruising Multilhulls

https://vimeo.com/139455209
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2016, 19:11   #41
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: first solo sail on the ICW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson
If you have to do any upwind work, the jib only is the way to go.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
This advice seems questionable.

I'm thinking the reason they designed the Laser and the A Class Catamaran with just the mainsail rather than just the jib speaks volumes

The new A Class Catamaran was again designed with just a mainsail for all points of sail and still seems to sail rather well upwind.

Not sure how it would do with just a jib for upwind work though.
Man,

You keep flogging this dead horse.

Your examples have nothing to do with a Catalina 22.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2016, 19:13   #42
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Nice explanation Jim, but any sailor with experience knows that if you are going to have only one sail on a sloop rigged boat for all conditions it would be the mainsail. (the OP was asking which sail if only one)
For the OP, this is so very wrong and not applicable to your boat.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2016, 19:23   #43
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,454
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
For the OP, this is so very wrong and not applicable to your boat.
He asked if you have one sail to choose to sail with, which would it be?

I took him literally whereas you considered the type boat he was sailing as if it were in daysailing conditions on a nice easy day. But if you had to sail back home against the wind, you'd need a main sail especially in winds over say 17 knots with waves

On a sloop rigged boat if you could only have one sail to sail with, it would be the main.

There is really no argument which again is why they design boats with just one sail having a main only.
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2016, 22:09   #44
Registered User
 
buzzstar's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: ashore in So Calif.
Boat: No more boat (my medical, not the boat's)
Posts: 1,269
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

I had a Columbia 22 almost 50 years ago. Very similar to the Catalina 22, but definitely not the same. Still some generalities apply. Both sails for virtually all MANAGABLE conditions, but not all conditions. Two sails do provide more choices, including dousing one. I recall a day with very strong southern California Santa Ana winds (aka Santanas). I experimented within the harbor. Jib alone was easier to control than main alone, but the boat was not. Did not try reefing (it was possible to roll main up on the boom) but found the only real way to make headway in a (more or less) reliable direction was to use the main alone. Thank goodness it worked, because the previously dependable outboard failed to start out just about the time I decided I did not want to experiment further because it was unnecessarily scary -saw one monohull fairly high on the riprap (must have been going like a bat out of hell!), and another that had failed to right after a knockdown -both vessels were somewhat larger than mine, and the crews were OK, but I was alone. Fortunately the local harbor patrol was out and about, so there was nothing for me to do in the way of assistance. Suggestion, be ready to experiment with your vessel, ideas from others are OK, but boats and conditions, not to mention abilities, vary enough to make knowing yourself and your boat the real issue.
__________________
"Old California"
buzzstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2016, 22:26   #45
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,447
Re: First solo sail on the ICW

Thomm25, I just do not understand your persistent repeating of stuff about beach cats and your Bristol. The OP was asking about practices for HIS BOAT, a Catalina 22.

Here we have two sailors who have owned and sailed extensively in Catalina 22s. We both report that the boat would sail well to windward with just a head sail. Not that it was the best way to get to windward, but that it worked, except in very light airs. It worked bloody well in 15-20 true, commonly found in the transition between morning calms and the arvo 25+ sea breeze found on SF bay daily in the summer months. IT WORKS, whether you like it or not.

I have no interest in prolonging this discussion, but will add my recommendation to the OP to consider the source of the info w hen deciding what to believe.


Out.

Jim
__________________

__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
icw, sail

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tips for First Overnight Solo Sail hoppy Seamanship & Boat Handling 42 28-02-2012 17:27
First Solo Sail - How Could it Be Better? Dinghy101 General Sailing Forum 11 27-10-2009 02:21
First Solo Sail theonecalledtom Seamanship & Boat Handling 16 04-07-2009 23:31
First solo sail around Antarctica? TAREUA General Sailing Forum 4 28-11-2007 17:49



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:18.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.