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Old 06-06-2017, 06:51   #16
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Re: Engineless anyone?

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Originally Posted by boat_alexandra View Post
This is really clever, maybe you can kill 100% of the great barrier reef by next year since so far only 70% is completely destroyed.


Lol…..do you have any knowledge of the GBR? Do you know where the shipping lanes are and the volume that transits the reef every year? the amount of tourist vessel that transit every day? Somehow I think not….
The reason for upping my HP was the old NA Isuzu was just about worn out and not worth the time and dollars to rebuild, so I went up 25hp and installed a 4JH4-TE, which is just as economical as the old clunker……..But more importantly, it produces nearly 30% less emissions than the old engine AND meets the comprehensive emissions regulations introduced in the EU & US, something the old engine would have had no hope of meeting….
So again, please explain how I have made things worse for the reef by doing what I did?
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:27   #17
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Re: Engineless anyone?

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
You can know your boat and practice all you want, but when there's no wind it doesn't help

I sailed engineless for 15 years.........not cruising, beach cats but did multiple 30-100 mile distance races

Also, dodging barges along the ICW at night does get interesting under sail engineless when there is zero wind (or a zephyr here and there)

I'll take the 5 hp outboard on my boat anytime over engineless
If engineless I would not do the icw by choice I would prefer to go outside. When you know you dont have the iron wind you plan your trip appropriately for that.
As far as little to no wind then you break out your asymmetrical spinnaker and the sweeps.
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Old 06-06-2017, 16:53   #18
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Re: Engineless anyone?

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If engineless I would not do the icw by choice I would prefer to go outside. When you know you dont have the iron wind you plan your trip appropriately for that.
As far as little to no wind then you break out your asymmetrical spinnaker and the sweeps.
You don't get to plan your trips appropriately when racing. We did the outside 50-60 miles in the Gulf in the morning with the race starting promptly at 0700.

Which means loading food, raising sails, and getting to the start line by 0700 with as many as 80 other boats in close proximity

The last part is the ICW section and most times you have the afternoon wind to get you home but not always. If you have to spend the night racing in the dark it becomes a game of guessing the bearings of barges coming your way

If we can use our spinnakers we do, if not just main and jib. Raising the spinnakers is simple on a beach cat because they are in socks and ready to go. My last boat was a single handed beach cat with asymmetrical spinnaker

I did this 100 mile race 3X with just main and spinnaker and 2X on a different boat with spinnaker singlehanded on a really light weight 17' boat which can wear you down with it's quick movements after 20 hour much of it being trapped out.

The boats weigh between 300-400 lbs with the same sail area as my 6600 lb displacement Bristol 27.

Then there were the other 20 or so 19-32 mile races we did also without engines.

I'm just sayin' sometimes it can get old becalmed without any wind 2-5 miles from your destination (after racing/sailing all afternoon and sometimes over night) and having to sit there for hours just because you don't have a 3-5 hp engine and a gallon or two of gas(or diesel)

This can apply to cruising also if you are low on supplies and very close to a nearby port only to be without wind ..........
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Old 06-06-2017, 19:49   #19
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Re: Engineless anyone?

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Originally Posted by boat_alexandra View Post
A dying world is a huge limitation! We lost thousands of nice places to anchor just last year. This is _fewer_ options not more.

Also, you probably falsely believe you have more options because you don't know how to sail in the conditions you consider the motor an "asset" in, and therefore you have no experience and don't really know what you are saying. I have heard dozens of people say "you can't sail in/out of X harbor" or, you can't sail through straits of malacca, or...

Then I go sail there, or find an engine free sailor who has done it without any issues. Always it is the people with the motors who think they are needed, and they are always wrong.
This is quite the gratuitous attack! I believe that there is no place you can't go to engineless, given time and the right conditions and skill level--but I have enough sailing skill and experience to know that the right conditions don't always exist. So my 8-HP engine is an asset that allows me to take advantage of a calm with a fair tide, or to get out of a skinny harbor against a contrary wind to where I can set sail more easily, or to get anchored before darkness or bad weather become a serious inconvenience.
But consider, in your rage against engines, that everyone who's cruising is not at home driving their cars, even if they do have huge motors, so the carbon footprint of most cruising sailors is far less than if they were on land. I know mine certainly is. And if you're going to get down on fuel-burning, how will you buy food that wasn't transported by burning fuels, or have sails and line that didn't begin life as oil? (or a fiberglass boat, of a wooden boat made of wood milled using electricity, or......)
In a world where airplanes, big ships and power plants burn unimaginable quantities of fossil fuels, the amount of fuel that cruising sailors consume is infinitesimal. Your sailing style is laudable, but your attitude is churlish.

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Old 06-06-2017, 21:05   #20
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Re: Engineless anyone?

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Originally Posted by boat_alexandra View Post
.. . , the old sailing ships were much more difficult to sail without an engine and they managed, so today most people are obviously incompetent sailors.. .

There is absolutely no reason anyone should have an engine, and if you do, you are actually stealing from future generations which is a crime.
So cruising sailors who use engines are "obviously incompetent" and "criminals"?

Hmmm. The problem with fanatacism is that it closes the mind and leads to wild errors of judgement.

Tell me, do you eat meat? Did you know that 20% to 50% of human-produced greenhouse gasses come from raising livestock.

I wonder what percentage of greenhouse gasses come from cruising sailors motoring in and out of harbors - maybe 0.00000000000000001%?

I don't eat meat or dairy - I'm a strict vegan. But I don't call meat-eaters or milk-drinkers "criminals". I use a bicycle instead of a car. But I burn about a tonne or tonne and a half of diesel fuel a year in my boat, and I don't lose sleep over it.
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Old 06-06-2017, 22:11   #21
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Re: Engineless anyone?

I also raised an eyebrow or two at this one. I'm quite confident that those of us who live on our boats have a carbon footprint thats FAR lighter than our land-based counterparts.

There is no way to exist on this fair planet of ours without having an impact. I would suggest that sailing is really very good on that scale. Engine or not.

I also motor as needed. But we do have a pretty big solar array and we stick up a wind generator when we're going to be out on the hook for extended periods.

Criminal? Well, ok.

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Old 06-06-2017, 22:45   #22
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Re: Engineless anyone?

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
I admire your simple and efficient voyage around the world engineless, well done.

I'd love to hear more about your yuloh, and how you set it up. Sounds like it works very well for you. My old sculling oar worked ok but it was a fair old effort however I really liked the way I could quickly deploy it to sweep the stern around. This got me out of a few pickles, I once nearly missed stays on a very rough gusty day far too close to Barrets Reef when beating out Chaffers Passage, Wellington. A few quick strokes of the sweep just got me through the tack and clear.
Wow, I have also sailed too close to barrets reef at night time!

It wasn't so rough, at least not by wellington standards.

Quote:

I added a rope much like a yuloh had and it made for a huge reduction in effort. But the system really needed redesigning.
Yes, the rope makes the yuloh much more efficient. My blade is 2 meters by 30 cm, s curved on one side and flat on the other. The shaft that attaches to the blade is also about 2 meters made from a curved piece of wood. The curve is significant because it determines when the rope will be tight to flip the blade.

I think a lighter weight sculling oar made from carbon and foam maybe, with the right amount of flexibility in it would be much more efficient and really interesting.
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Old 07-06-2017, 01:43   #23
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Re: Engineless anyone?

Our little boat has an engine. In fact it is engine nr 3. The boat had a Swedish Solo 2 cylinder 8,8 HP at the launch in 1945, now has a Perkins 4108 M.


We sail the Med now, and I try not to use the engine at all. We dont need it for electricity, and me been a mechanic have a sound fear for the fuel we are getting over here. Diesel bug is a real big problem and our engine stopped twice at a very inconvenient moment.


So I started doing all our anchoring by sail. In the last 18 years as liveaboard sailors we must have anchored and left from anchoring thousands of times. Often in very difficult situations.
Knowing you can do all but Mediterranean mooring to a town quay under sail gives a deep feeling of security.


I often get applause from other anchored yachts when manoeuvring backwards, then taking a 180° turn at the spot using only sails.


Just like Mr Oreilly´s our boat is long keeled, displaces 8 tons for 8 meter waterline but we use five working sails with the lug yawl sail as the magic to do tricks.


However, our engine saved the boat a few times, would not like to be without.
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Old 07-06-2017, 05:58   #24
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Re: Engineless anyone?

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I think a lighter weight sculling oar made from carbon and foam maybe, with the right amount of flexibility in it would be much more efficient and really interesting.


So, do you have any idea what sort of
Hypocrite this turns you into? The materials to make that oar are highly noxious, are petroleum based and nowhere near carbon neutral (maybe if you use the oar for your entire lifetime, assuming it had a lifetime design cycle).
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Old 07-06-2017, 06:38   #25
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Re: Engineless anyone?

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
If engineless I would not do the icw by choice I would prefer to go outside. When you know you dont have the iron wind you plan your trip appropriately for that.
As far as little to no wind then you break out your asymmetrical spinnaker and the sweeps.
ICW is one example of not feasible, or safe, to do under sail. Ive heard bridge tenders on the ICW refuse to open for boats under sail only...flakey winds and currents around a bridge could be a serious challenge under sail.
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Old 07-06-2017, 06:43   #26
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Re: Engineless anyone?

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.......
There is absolutely no reason anyone should have an engine..........
Transiting the Panama Canal??????
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Old 07-06-2017, 07:08   #27
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Re: Engineless anyone?

Whlle the tall ships referenced did indeed make crossings without engines, they were towed into port powered tugs (at least in the later years of the golden era of sail).
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Old 07-06-2017, 07:13   #28
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Re: Engineless anyone?

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Originally Posted by boat_alexandra View Post
A dying world is a huge limitation! We lost thousands of nice places to anchor just last year. This is _fewer_ options not more.

Also, you probably falsely believe you have more options because you don't know how to sail in the conditions you consider the motor an "asset" in, and therefore you have no experience and don't really know what you are saying. I have heard dozens of people say "you can't sail in/out of X harbor" or, you can't sail through straits of malacca, or...

Then I go sail there, or find an engine free sailor who has done it without any issues. Always it is the people with the motors who think they are needed, and they are always wrong.
Dogma is offensive and ineffective regardless of what position it is used to support.

While we should all do our best to minimize our impact on the environment, cruising sailors represent such a small percentage of the population that the impact of their engine use is miniscule by comparison to the broader population.
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Old 07-06-2017, 07:27   #29
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Re: Engineless anyone?

Here in the Med engine less would be dangerous.
Just the other day. I was anchored in Ermioni Greece, with a big catamaran anchored way to close to us.
Furthermore, the cat people put out 50 meters of chain ( habit ) in 2,5 m of good holding mud.
I use a hand operated anchor winch, so 25 meters is already a lot of work. Also been singe handed, I can´t be at the helm when I break the anchor out.


I know, the others have no clue, are not used to old design boats, so I never complain, never say a word.
Because of the difference in behaviour hanging behind an anchor of the wind balloon catamaran and our low on the water long keeled extra heavy boat I had to keep the lugyawl up all the time.
Sudden wind direction changes are normal in hill surrounded anchorages. The cat skates over the water, our boat starts to move very very slowly. The lugyawl helps to turn the boat into the wind in stead of starting to sail in the direction the bowsprit is pointing in.


Early in the morning the wind just picking up I hoisted main and lugyawl, then started winching in chain and anchor. Wind was good so the boat could drift back until just behind the cat, then from the foredeck roll out the kluiver ( head sail on the end of the bowsprit ) and hold the sail by hand in the centre of the boat thereby forcing the bow to turn downwind.


By backing the lugyawl before hauling anchor and laying the rudder over I determine the direction the boat will fall back and consequently sail away.


All went well, We ware just clearing the cat, I just wanted to roll the kluiver out when a sudden windschift and wind puff grabbed the main. Boat started sailing with the main against the spreaders, bowsprit pointing at the hull of the cat.


Only our diesel could save the cat. Engine started by the first turn, A good dot of gas and we rounded the cat in front. Engine out. Fifteen seconds of diesel power. No damage.
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Old 07-06-2017, 07:28   #30
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Re: Engineless anyone?

I like the yuloh concept. While I dont cruise engineless, I do own one boat I usually sail engineless...a Hobie 33. It is an exceptional light air boat, extremely nimble under sail, and light enough to be sculled effectively with rudder or oars. I have in fact lashed long oars to stancions before and rowed it from the cockpit. I think a yuloh would work very well on this boat.

To go cruising engineless, a boat with similar characteristics would be ideal, but it has VERY limited interior volume and would not be a comfortable cruiser.

If I cruised a boat like that then I would be doing it solo.

Most cruising catamarans have none of the above characteristics, but many have one thing in common...the wife likes it.

While I enjoy single handed sailing, I prefer to share cruising with someone...thus no engineless cruising for me.

Conclusion: its her fault. 😆
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