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Old 14-08-2012, 14:08   #121
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Your sentiments are nice, and i am glad your kids are doing so well.
My own family didn't have it so lucky unfortunately (don't think it had anything to do with lack of effort) Both my parents worked hard all their lives.
The first house my Parents bought had no power or fuel of any kind for the first two years, we cooked over candles,and all us kids attended school daily without anyone the wiser.
We sacrificed because my Father was to proud to ask for help from the Social Services,which could have saved us a lot of grief. and my poor mother a lot of anguish G.R.H.S.

So i dont think we are looking at this through the same lenses at all AVB3.
Some people get dealt the cards they are given and do the best that they can.
I am having a hard time biting my tongue when people throw around terms like entitlement and Living of the rest of us, as my family have opened their homes to many a wayward traveler down on their luck over the years.
I am proud to call myself one of the many without much who tried to help as often as we could with what little we had.
So i believe i shall keep defending the underdog for now as i have more in common with them than the lucky privileged percentage of our populace.

Sometimes its not so clear and we really have to walk the mile to find out, or remain forever insulated and ignorant.




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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I really wonder how much of this is as a result of the perceived "need" of a family as compared to the actual real need.

I can only relate to my two kids, both married, one with 3 kids at home and the other with one. Both mothers are stay at home mom's, both of which earned more than their husbands in their professional careers they took a break from. Neither is going back until all the kids are in school. Both families own their own homes, drive newer or new vehicles that are paid for, and do not live ostentatiously. Oh, and both have no debt. None, other than a mortgage.

They also choose not to go on expensive holidays (they go camping instead), grow their own veggies, my son goes hunting which supplements meat, and don't give a hoot about keeping up with the neighbors.

Choices they make.

If they can structure their lives that way, many, many, many others could. However, there is a view of entitlement that still exists, including an entitlement to the 'good life', as opposed living a right life. When did children become so unimportant that they are warehoused in babysitting facilities until they can go to school because mommy needs a new whatever?

I recognize that some families require two incomes. But that requirement is far less than popular opinion suggests it is.

Control debt, control expenditures, and many of those who would rather ditch their kids too could provide those kids with a quality family, especially in those early years.

It is what I grew up as, my kids did, and I am so appreciative that all my grandkids get that benefit.
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Old 14-08-2012, 14:12   #122
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

I mean no disrespect to those more fortunate than i.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo55 View Post
Your sentiments are nice, and i am glad your kids are doing so well.
My own family didn't have it so lucky unfortunately (don't think it had anything to do with lack of effort) Both my parents worked hard all their lives.
The first house my Parents bought had no power or fuel of any kind for the first two years, we cooked over candles,and all us kids attended school daily without anyone the wiser.
We sacrificed because my Father was to proud to ask for help from the Social Services,which could have saved us a lot of grief. and my poor mother a lot of anguish G.R.H.S.

So i dont think we are looking at this through the same lenses at all AVB3.
Some people get dealt the cards they are given and do the best that they can.
I am having a hard time biting my tongue when people throw around terms like entitlement and Living of the rest of us, as my family have opened their homes to many a wayward traveler down on their luck over the years.
I am proud to call myself one of the many without much who tried to help as often as we could with what little we had.
So i believe i shall keep defending the underdog for now as i have more in common with them than the lucky privileged percentage of our populace.

Sometimes its not so clear and we really have to walk the mile to find out, or remain forever insulated and ignorant.
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Old 14-08-2012, 14:32   #123
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

OK - Time to summarize? Let me try it.

Perhaps we can agree on something -

1) we probably do not want more laws on the books if existing laws can be enforced.

2) These issues are probably local issues which require a local approach to resolve.

3) It is difficult to get enforcement of existing laws - some sort of coordinated approach must be applied. Perhaps groups can form locally which would either pressure local governments or seek help from groups such as BoatUS to help publicize and pressure local agencies.

So a) we can forget this is really a problem and learn to live with it, b) complain about it and hence learn to live with it without really doing anything about it or c) organize locally and do something about it. I do not see a problem in my cruising waters so it is up to you. Good luck and thanks for the entertainment!
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Old 14-08-2012, 14:58   #124
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

When has creating new policies and/or laws really solved anything?

Who gets to decide who is a derelict and who is not? If somebody wants to live the life of a bum, who are we to say that they can't.
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Old 14-08-2012, 15:02   #125
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo55 View Post
Your sentiments are nice, and i am glad your kids are doing so well.
My own family didn't have it so lucky unfortunately (don't think it had anything to do with lack of effort) Both my parents worked hard all their lives.
The first house my Parents bought had no power or fuel of any kind for the first two years, we cooked over candles,and all us kids attended school daily without anyone the wiser.
We sacrificed because my Father was to proud to ask for help from the Social Services,which could have saved us a lot of grief. and my poor mother a lot of anguish G.R.H.S.

So i dont think we are looking at this through the same lenses at all AVB3.
Some people get dealt the cards they are given and do the best that they can.
I am having a hard time biting my tongue when people throw around terms like entitlement and Living of the rest of us, as my family have opened their homes to many a wayward traveler down on their luck over the years.
I am proud to call myself one of the many without much who tried to help as often as we could with what little we had.
So i believe i shall keep defending the underdog for now as i have more in common with them than the lucky privileged percentage of our populace.

Sometimes its not so clear and we really have to walk the mile to find out, or remain forever insulated and ignorant.
It is true that circumstances require two incomes... I truly get that. In the case of my kids, my son is a tradesman, and my son-in-law works for government. Certainly not 1%'ers in anyone's book.

The point I was trying to make is that debt, expenditures (do you really need that smartphone?) and choices of what is important (a luxury holiday or time with kids) that makes a difference. Both mom's growing their own food... how often does that occur? Their houses, although new or newer, are modest... my son's is the largest at 1200 sq ft. Choices again. That is not 'good enough' for many, is it?

I used the term 'entitlement' in the context that so many seem to mean that they are somehow 'owed' the good life. My sentiment is that we are all entitled to have the opportunity, but after that, we are on our own.

BTW, I understand coming up from the bottom. When we emigrated to Canada, we lived in a rooming house with my parents bedroom consisting of a divide built by cardboard boxes, and the kitchen and bathroom shared with four families. I slept in the uninsulated veranda of the house. Hence I feel even stronger about my sentiments
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Old 14-08-2012, 15:41   #126
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

I get lumped into this homeless group often. Ive lived aboard 8 yrs now mostly on the hook. SometimesI get some growth on the waterline. Sometimes(now) there are rust streaks down the side of my boat. Ive stayed at one time or another at the boat ghettos around tampa bay. The people who I know are glad to see me come and sad when I leave.This includes the people that run the marinas where I pump out fand fill up mytans. They see me weekly and many now me by name. I work for a living doing canvas for much less than people pay at land based shops.I think the anger comes from those people who trade theyre whole lives for the box they call home. I drive a bicycle when I go to the store. I have 1 regular recurring bill that is my phone. My power comes from the wind and sun. Call mea bum or whatever you feel. I feel sorry for you. If you want to spend your time(the only thing any of us really have) paying for your box, in the last minutes of your life what will you have? Ill have the satisaction of knowing that I had time to enjoy the outdoors and to examine my existance on a day by day basis. Not waiting for the weekend and my weekly day of freedom.Be mad but you should be mad at yourself not me. I raised two kids, bought and sold a house, ran a profitable business. NowIm a happybum living on the hook, eating good, exercising and have good friends in many ports. Think Ill go merditate or a while.
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Old 14-08-2012, 15:50   #127
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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The problem with actually removing derelict boats is of course money. Whos going to pay to have the boat hauled, chopped up and dumped. Its all money. Most cities and towns are scraping by trying to pay the police and fire and keep the water running. There just isn't much money to pay for removing derelict boats.

....

The state of Florida, and many other states, already have funds set aside specifically for the hauling away of derelicts and water cleanup projects. It's paid for by taxes (I think most of it comes through the FWC budget). It's already paid for, not a new tax they have to collect everytime they cleanup a boat. It's already come out of our/your pockets and been allocated specifically to this problem.

It's certainly possible it's not enough to solve every problem, but it's hundreds of thousands and there's only about 3000 boats to haul away. This (with actual numbers) is public info FWC, NOAA, and other websites.

If your city isn't hauling boats away and complaining about how much it would cost, ask them who's pocket the money went into.


Here:
Marine Debris Program - Projects - Archived Projects

I can't seem to link to the other noaa web page with funding information, but if you google NOAA marine debris programs, it will come up.
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Old 14-08-2012, 16:05   #128
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote from NOAA;


"Funding of up to $2,000,000 is expected to be available for Community-based Marine Debris Removal Project Grants in FY2012. Typical awards will range from $15,000 to $150,000."

This is just one of their programs. Of course, the city/state has to actually apply for the grant (I've read of other funds FL already accepted in previous years from different programs. Again, where did that money go?), but I don't think anybody would disagree with Florida's need for such specific funding.
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Old 14-08-2012, 16:07   #129
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
The state of Florida, and many other states, already have funds set aside specifically for the hauling away of derelicts and water cleanup projects. It's paid for by taxes (I think most of it comes through the FWC budget). It's already paid for, not a new tax they have to collect everytime they cleanup a boat. It's already come out of our/your pockets and been allocated specifically to this problem.

It's certainly possible it's not enough to solve every problem, but it's hundreds of thousands and there's only about 3000 boats to haul away. This (with actual numbers) is public info FWC, NOAA, and other websites.

If your city isn't hauling boats away and complaining about how much it would cost, ask them who's pocket the money went into.


Here:
Marine Debris Program - Projects - Archived Projects

I can't seem to link to the other noaa web page with funding information, but if you google NOAA marine debris programs, it will come up.

on top o that they fine the last registered owner upward of $5k. There are people who would remove the vessels for free to scrap them if it werent a felony.
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Old 14-08-2012, 16:14   #130
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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Originally Posted by forsailbyowner View Post
on top o that they fine the last registered owner upward of $5k. There are people who would remove the vessels for free to scrap them if it werent a felony.
It's not a felony if they go through the appropriate channels and apply for a salvage title.

"Claiming Abandoned Vessels
In the State of Florida there are no "Vessel Salvage Rights". In order to claim title to an abandoned vessel, you must follow the Statutes for Found Property. 705.102 FS requires a person to report found property to Law Enforcement. After this has been done, you may begin the process of claiming found property."

Derelict, Abandoned & At Risk Vessels

The only point I'm trying to make here is there are already more than enough laws and resources in place at this time. All it takes is People (as in, community) to take action instead of waiting around for the government to "do their job".

If anyone wants to fund a salvaging business in FL, I'd be happy to head up the operation
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Old 14-08-2012, 16:24   #131
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
You know, this thread keeps going down empty rabbit holes. It isn't about rich, crime, poop, freedom, regulations, etc. It's about dirty derelict abandoned boats.

So does anyone have any ideas to address this?

PS - I don't believe input from SE Asia by someone making connections to the topic of "bombing little brown people" is very useful addressing the topic. So there I bit you!
Although I don't agree with all their powers especially the no liveaboard clauses, this is where NSW Maritime laws & regs do seem to work. Let your boat go and they will send you a polite letter to clean it up. Ignore numerous letters and they can impound and eventually auction your boat.

Likewise, they can slap a notice to remove on unregistered and illegally moored boats. Again, after an impound period, they can sell the boat.

If you end up in either of the above situations the trick is to communicate with Maritime. They are fairly understanding. Never ignore the warnings. The cost of them towing, impounding and the fines are prohibitive. Something I don't particularly agree with, generally being another blow to those who could not afford to pay in the first place. Nevertheless, if you deliberately ignore a notice to remove you get what you deserve
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Old 14-08-2012, 16:29   #132
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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Originally Posted by forsailbyowner View Post
I get lumped into this homeless group often. Ive lived aboard 8 yrs now mostly on the hook. SometimesI get some growth on the waterline. Sometimes(now) there are rust streaks down the side of my boat. Ive stayed at one time or another at the boat ghettos around tampa bay. The people who I know are glad to see me come and sad when I leave.This includes the people that run the marinas where I pump out fand fill up mytans. They see me weekly and many now me by name. I work for a living doing canvas for much less than people pay at land based shops.I think the anger comes from those people who trade theyre whole lives for the box they call home. I drive a bicycle when I go to the store. I have 1 regular recurring bill that is my phone. My power comes from the wind and sun. Call mea bum or whatever you feel. I feel sorry for you. If you want to spend your time(the only thing any of us really have) paying for your box, in the last minutes of your life what will you have? Ill have the satisaction of knowing that I had time to enjoy the outdoors and to examine my existance on a day by day basis. Not waiting for the weekend and my weekly day of freedom.Be mad but you should be mad at yourself not me. I raised two kids, bought and sold a house, ran a profitable business. NowIm a happybum living on the hook, eating good, exercising and have good friends in many ports. Think Ill go merditate or a while.

See I don't consider you a bum or even the topic under "discussion" because I know not everyone who lives on their boat is in the derelict abandoned dirty boat category.

So... what are your thoughts on derelict dirty abandoned boats?
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Old 14-08-2012, 16:36   #133
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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See I don't consider you a bum or even the topic under "discussion" because I know not everyone who lives on their boat is in the derelict abandoned dirty boat category.

So... what are your thoughts on derelict dirty abandoned boats?
If somebody is living on it, it is not "abandoned".
As far as I know, there aren't any deed restrictions on the water where they require you to keep your boat clean.
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Old 14-08-2012, 16:42   #134
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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As far as I know, there aren't any deed restrictions on the water where they require you to keep your boat clean.

Well see now we are getting to it aren't we! Far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter if you live in a house, car, boat, RV, tent, with a cart under the bridge; if you can not keep it clean (maybe not clean so much picked up and not a junk yard) you're bum!

I'm not sorry to say this!
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Old 14-08-2012, 16:44   #135
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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If somebody is living on it, it is not "abandoned".
As far as I know, there aren't any deed restrictions on the water where they require you to keep your boat clean.
"clean" isn't part of it, but there are (atleast in FL) restrictions regarding the overall condition and functionality of a boat. particularly when someone is living on it.

At Risk Vessels

If a dirty boat is an indication of derelict status, I'm in trouble
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