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Old 13-08-2012, 06:05   #91
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Too many envious and/or jealous bastards in this world, none with the balls to go for it and enjoy the simple life?

Oh, bought a generator and some two pack undercoat so I can seriously start cleaning up my yacht. So glad too to get rid of the aluminium dinghy that kept smashing up the hull.
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Old 13-08-2012, 09:50   #92
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

The problem is not the derelicts themselves. The problem is getting the government agencies to enforce the laws regarding the derelicts. 1) Boats must be registered. 2) Vessels in navigational waters need to adhere to vessel requirements. I'm sure there is more. No one wants these people beside them, including on land. Here is Ca. the Sheriffs turn a blind eye to it all.
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Old 13-08-2012, 17:46   #93
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
Originally Posted by SurferShane View Post
Too many envious and/or jealous bastards in this world, none with the balls to go for it and enjoy the simple life?

Oh, bought a generator and some two pack undercoat so I can seriously start cleaning up my yacht. So glad too to get rid of the aluminium dinghy that kept smashing up the hull.

Shane, there is very little to be jealous of a person who is living in a derelict/abandoned hulk with few resources. This is hardly the "simple life" you depict romantically but rather one of the continual struggle of abject poverty that is many times accompanied by drug and alcohol addiction, mental illness and petty crime. I have experienced them directly on the streets of Chicago and in the waterways of South Florida. These people are not your "noble savage" depicted in second rate cinema or the equivalent of a Henry David Thoreau.
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Old 13-08-2012, 17:54   #94
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
or anchored next to you ............... come on admit it

I can not believe the amount of govt hate, class hate, society hate, rules regardless hate, excuses, "not me", and other thread drift this thread has had.

In fact I'm amazed it hasn't been closed (that would be CF mod hate).
I would not like it and would likely move to another spot. The key though is that he is not breaking laws....likely he is breaking laws judging by the remarks here.
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Old 13-08-2012, 18:05   #95
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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I would not like it and would likely move to another spot. The key though is that he is not breaking laws....likely he is breaking laws judging by the remarks here.
OK, but remember not everyone can move.

I never said he was breaking any laws. If you look though the thread I don't think I've make any statement that any liveaboard is a law breaker of any kind.

Then again I don't hate govt etc and don't think people are out to get me.
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Old 13-08-2012, 19:02   #96
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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But that requires more taxes and more restrictive laws.

Many and probably most of these people have a mental illness. Years ago we put them in institutions, the likes of which are now mostly closed and now derelict tourist sites or torn down. Now most of those people who would have been institutionalized there are instead on their own ...

Until we pony up the bucks and spend them appropriately, applying laws to move them someplace else is just rotating the tyres when you have a flat. Despite what we might think and what they might say few mooring or viaduct squatters want to be there; they are there because they don't have the survival tools not to be there.
Well put. We should also remember who started this craze (hard to do when the education systems have been dumbed down - kids these days no longer have civics class). The Regan years started the race to the bottom and the same types who advocate less taxes for the rich, who can afford it, and will penalize those of us on "reasonable" incomes, if any at all these days, still have sway. A few years ago someone wrote a book about Kansas and why people were voting against their own self interests.

I don't know about you, but my taxes haven't been ging down like the richie-riches guys have since our Iraq War President spent all of our tax money on a blatant waste of time, lives and money.

All the $$ that has been discussed in this thread WAS spent in Iraq. Do the math. Please.

Those who suggest or support higher taxes for the "reasonable" income earners in this country are missing the point. The reduction in the taxes for the rich and corporations coupled with a disastrous unnecessary costly war, magnified by the Wall Street Bankers greed in 2008 got us into this mess.

Gonna take some time to undo it.

And the lack of the ability of citizens to remember what happened even yesterday is truly scary.

Back to boating: I know it seems simple, but if those very good writers and contributors to this thread would cull their answers to apply to the issue at hand, they would be:

1. There is a difference between cruisers and derelicts

2. So far, no one is taking the responsibility to differentiate between the two and the cruisers are getting lumped together with the derelicts

3. There is a need to identify that difference

4. The land-locked folks making the definition have NO CLUE - they only see "boats" - all boats

5. Skippers "passing through" have absolutely NO "control" or sway or impact on the local land-locked community's political will or decision making process

6. Whether folks living on derelicts had a "choice" to be there or not, they ARE there - it is a real "issue" - I see them in The Estuary in Oakland/Alameda every time I sail out

7. Since the 1980s, compassion has given way to nothing but greed - "me first" is the new norm and changing that is very, very difficult - it's almost human nature

8. There are solutions: the wrecks in Clipper Cove were removed, as were the ones in the Berkeley Marina

9. More laws are ridiculous, enforce the ones already on the books - I'd vote early and often for the first politician who promised to get rid of stupid laws instead of authoring new ones

10. Stop spending money on guns, spend it on the institutions that Regan closed, spend it on helping the less fortunate among us, go after the crooks on Wall Street
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Old 13-08-2012, 19:09   #97
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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Originally Posted by knothead View Post
When a boater, through negligence or disregard, drags anchor or chafes through their rode and damages or destroys property belonging to others, they should be held responsible.

I don't want to see any further restrictions on our freedoms, I just would like to see people holding themselves responsible for and taking more notice of the affects they have on others.
I would like to see more stress on communication, working together and reaching out to others rather than more laws.

It's only when we reach a point that we can rely on our own consciousnesses to achieve this, rather than on imposed regulations and restrictions, that we will reach harmony.

I don't think as a group we'll ever come to agreement. Most people here don't want more regulations, but many have hollered when existing laws have been applied.
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Old 13-08-2012, 19:44   #98
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Ahh...There's a question. Am I a cruiser or a derelict. Really depends who you ask. I have been put down by a yacht club lady last year as "one of those liveaboard's", so that one probably goes in the derelict column. The fact that I sail my old boat more then all the local yachties combined puts me I think in the cruiser column.

While I have made over $100k a year in the past. I am at the moment enjoying the delightful downturn in the economy as a boat bum-ette. I however don't drink, and have never done drugs. I did have a shoe problem, but after many years of counselling I've got that under control... Though I do seem to have developed a grumpy cat problem .

I was over in Richardson bay some weeks back, and while there are still many derelicts there, most of the boats in the anchorage I would classify as being above that level of disrepair. There's still alot of boats out there but many more are just somewhat older, without that nearly sunk look...

Though I expect to the fine folks over on Belvedere ( the opposite side of Richardson bay with 9000 sf homes and larger) anything under 100 feet in length and without paid crew is a derelict. Its really just a matter of perspective.

This board has such a wide array of the social economical spectrum. I for one am always amazed that we all get along so swimmingly.
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Old 13-08-2012, 19:49   #99
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
The problem is not the derelicts themselves. The problem is getting the government agencies to enforce the laws regarding the derelicts. 1) Boats must be registered. 2) Vessels in navigational waters need to adhere to vessel requirements. I'm sure there is more. No one wants these people beside them, including on land. Here is Ca. the Sheriffs turn a blind eye to it all.
Hit the nail on the head


I think it should be noted that Florida has more derelict boats than any other state (by numbers in the thousands vs. numbers in the hundreds). Although, I haven't seen any numbers from California... I would assume it's pretty high, but not quite FL numbers due to the lack of available anchorages.

People living on a derelict boats are not homeless, they just have crappy homes. Not unlike people living in the ghetto down the road from you.
Do we force them to give up their homes and/or move 'elsewhere'?

Creating new laws to get rid of the boat ghettos is absolutely ridiculous when you consider that most of these boats are already violating an already existing law (or several laws).

The law enforcement can't do it all by themselves. Just like they can't control drug dealing in the real ghettos.

It is, and always has been, up to the LOCAL COMMUNITY, to take their own actions regarding 'bad neighbors'. Either by way of creating awareness and education, or by taking proper legal steps to encourage/push the local law enforcement into action.
It's been done a thousand times across america in bad neighborhoods where drug dealers, users, and homeless people thrive. It's done by the good people that live in the same neighborhood. Its NOT done by the rich people in the gated community 3 streets over. It's not done by new legislation, since the laws already exist. It's done by grassroots community action.

FL already has laws in place regarding derelict and unseaworthy vessels (google it). You can't sit back and wait for the police to do their job, YOU have to do something about it yourself, even if that means convincing the police to do their job.
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Old 13-08-2012, 19:50   #100
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

and from the Russian Judge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Well put. We should also remember who started this craze (hard to do when the education systems have been dumbed down - kids these days no longer have civics class). The Regan years started the race to the bottom and the same types who advocate less taxes for the rich, who can afford it, and will penalize those of us on "reasonable" incomes, if any at all these days, still have sway. A few years ago someone wrote a book about Kansas and why people were voting against their own self interests.

I don't know about you, but my taxes haven't been ging down like the richie-riches guys have since our Iraq War President spent all of our tax money on a blatant waste of time, lives and money.

All the $$ that has been discussed in this thread WAS spent in Iraq. Do the math. Please.

Those who suggest or support higher taxes for the "reasonable" income earners in this country are missing the point. The reduction in the taxes for the rich and corporations coupled with a disastrous unnecessary costly war, magnified by the Wall Street Bankers greed in 2008 got us into this mess.

Gonna take some time to undo it.

And the lack of the ability of citizens to remember what happened even yesterday is truly scary.

Back to boating: I know it seems simple, but if those very good writers and contributors to this thread would cull their answers to apply to the issue at hand, they would be:

1. There is a difference between cruisers and derelicts

2. So far, no one is taking the responsibility to differentiate between the two and the cruisers are getting lumped together with the derelicts

3. There is a need to identify that difference

4. The land-locked folks making the definition have NO CLUE - they only see "boats" - all boats

5. Skippers "passing through" have absolutely NO "control" or sway or impact on the local land-locked community's political will or decision making process

6. Whether folks living on derelicts had a "choice" to be there or not, they ARE there - it is a real "issue" - I see them in The Estuary in Oakland/Alameda every time I sail out

7. Since the 1980s, compassion has given way to nothing but greed - "me first" is the new norm and changing that is very, very difficult - it's almost human nature

8. There are solutions: the wrecks in Clipper Cove were removed, as were the ones in the Berkeley Marina

9. More laws are ridiculous, enforce the ones already on the books - I'd vote early and often for the first politician who promised to get rid of stupid laws instead of authoring new ones

10. Stop spending money on guns, spend it on the institutions that Regan closed, spend it on helping the less fortunate among us, go after the crooks on Wall Street
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Old 13-08-2012, 21:49   #101
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Callmecrazy great post. I am in key west right now in an anchorage area where there are no less than 6 boats beached and abandon and many many more derelict boats. They are an eye sore and would serve a better life as an artificial reef. There are already laws to solve this problem they just need to be enforced. There are also boats that have persons living on them but the boat is little more than a shell they are unsafe and a hazard. If everyone concerned would quite gripping about the problem and contact the local authority they would have to do something. Today I took a little dinghy ride and counted 1000 plus boats with at least half fitting the discription of derelict.
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Old 13-08-2012, 22:08   #102
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Ahh...There's a question. Am I a cruiser or a derelict. Really depends who you ask. I have been put down by a yacht club lady last year as "one of those liveaboard's", so that one probably goes in the derelict column. The fact that I sail my old boat more then all the local yachties combined puts me I think in the cruiser column.

While I have made over $100k a year in the past. I am at the moment enjoying the delightful downturn in the economy as a boat bum-ette. I however don't drink, and have never done drugs. I did have a shoe problem, but after many years of counselling I've got that under control... Though I do seem to have developed a grumpy cat problem .

I was over in Richardson bay some weeks back, and while there are still many derelicts there, most of the boats in the anchorage I would classify as being above that level of disrepair. There's still alot of boats out there but many more are just somewhat older, without that nearly sunk look...

Though I expect to the fine folks over on Belvedere ( the opposite side of Richardson bay with 9000 sf homes and larger) anything under 100 feet in length and without paid crew is a derelict. Its really just a matter of perspective.

This board has such a wide array of the social economical spectrum. I for one am always amazed that we all get along so swimmingly.

Chances were the Yacht club lady who poo poo'd you was a hanger on and not a boat owner herself. Over the years, I have accumulated many "one liners" for such occasions. I had a non-boating couple stroll the docks after someone left the gate open. As they walked by the conversation went like this...

Non boating couple (Man): "Oh, look dear, a hole in the water you throw money into" Ga fa ga fa ga fa

Celestialsailor: "Sir!, Please! ...That's no way to talk about your Lady".

Non boating couple (Female): "Loser! ... where's your better half"?

Celestialsailor: 'Below my belt and yours"?


I always buy "hard cases" type boats. In the beginning they raise a few eye-brows. After a few years of hard labor, she'll compare to any other nice boat.
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Old 13-08-2012, 23:15   #103
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

A lot of y'all seem to have a few bucks. You have worked all your life for what you have. So you want to enjoy it and buy a waterfront property. Its a nice place,nice dock for your boat,you spent 2,3 + mil. A few folks are going to feel the cove they are in belongs to them but most aren't going to have a problem if you have a well found boat and come and anchor for a week or two as long as your respectful. Now here comes a 10' jon boat with a 7.5hp gamefisher towing a 35' pos boat with 2 junk kayaks and anchors 100' off your dock with their 12lb danforth with 3/8" line. They don't stay a week or two but 6 months. They tell their friends and over the next 3 months 5 more boats in the same condition move in. Now stuff starts missing from your boats and docks and a few houses are robbed. I would guess 99% of you would be with your neighbors at the city hall demanding that boats not be anchored in your cove. So the cruisers get screwed but can you really blame the owners. Its not fair but there is always two sides to every story. The laws are on the books but you can bet the aclu will be involved if you throw out the bums and not everyone.
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Old 14-08-2012, 03:29   #104
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
Shane, there is very little to be jealous of a person who is living in a derelict/abandoned hulk with few resources. This is hardly the "simple life" you depict romantically but rather one of the continual struggle of abject poverty that is many times accompanied by drug and alcohol addiction, mental illness and petty crime. I have experienced them directly on the streets of Chicago and in the waterways of South Florida. These people are not your "noble savage" depicted in second rate cinema or the equivalent of a Henry David Thoreau.
No dramas; I understand exactly what you are saying. Who says I have not been there myself? Then when I was working in law I learnt never to judge a book by its cover. Invariably these people have had disturbing lives to say the very least.

The real problem for countries like America and even Australia is where to put these people who fall out of society? Prison or mental institutions being their typical alternate addresses. Best of luck to them for trying to live on the water?

Personally, instead of enacting legislation that makes these peoples lives even harder, I would advocate helping and educating them about acceptable boating. In the long run this would cost a lot less than the above options. Keeping these people institutionalised costs the taxpayers a disproportionate amount of money.
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Old 14-08-2012, 03:41   #105
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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Originally Posted by s/vfootloose View Post
A lot of y'all seem to have a few bucks. You have worked all your life for what you have. So you want to enjoy it and buy a waterfront property. Its a nice place,nice dock for your boat,you spent 2,3 + mil. A few folks are going to feel the cove they are in belongs to them but most aren't going to have a problem if you have a well found boat and come and anchor for a week or two as long as your respectful. Now here comes a 10' jon boat with a 7.5hp gamefisher towing a 35' pos boat with 2 junk kayaks and anchors 100' off your dock with their 12lb danforth with 3/8" line. They don't stay a week or two but 6 months. They tell their friends and over the next 3 months 5 more boats in the same condition move in. Now stuff starts missing from your boats and docks andq a few houses are robbed. I would guess 99% of you would be with your neighbors at the city hall demanding that boats not be anchored in your cove. So the cruisers get screwed but can you really blame the owners. Its not fair but there is always two sides to every story. The laws are on the books but you can bet the aclu will be involved if you throw out the bums and not everyone.
"What if"? Sounds like a good script for a bad movie? Then again, I know a few Aussie movies with very similar themes that are well worth watching.
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