Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-08-2012, 02:50   #46
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,436
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Poor does not automatically mean slovenliness or mental illness. There are dirt-poor folk that take very good care of their stuff and themselves and are lovely people. Otoh, I've known some quite wealthy folks that are simply slobs and oxygen thieves...you wouldn't pss on them if they were on fire.

Having screws loose doesn't automatically mean poverty...look at your respective capital city and wonder. There are different kinds. From personal experience, there are some amongst the homeless that do indeed respond well to a friendly approach and a helping hand...knowing that someone cares and doesn't condemn them is important. It's a nasty world.

Dave & Leiann Scee:

I'm interested in what you've found works for helping local communities. A one-time handout is all well and good, might be a God-send for someone....but as a blanket approach it would probably make the problem worse. The old Chinese proverb "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for life" is a good one, though one must still be careful here. If I ever achieve the independent cruising lifestyle I'd likely be in the southern Pacific, plenty of places there where a proactive helping hand would make a difference. The problem I see is that local officialdom might take a dim view...and coming as an outsider I'm wary of thinking I'm the big wise bwana come to bless the savages with civilised enlightenment; the locals are the experts in surviving there, not me. My idea would be to find folks that are keen to work their own success, and help them out...for example setting up small businesses, and teaching English. Personally, I hate globalism and don't want to contribute to that scam, so I'd like to hear what you've found that works toward helping locals without drawing them into Babylon's net.
__________________

__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 08:33   #47
Registered User
 
ravenblood's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: North Carolina Coast
Boat: 1959 New Horizon 26
Posts: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719

Dave & Leiann Scee:

I'm interested in what you've found works for helping local communities. A one-time handout is all well and good, might be a God-send for someone....but as a blanket approach it would probably make the problem worse. The old Chinese proverb "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for life" is a good one, though one must still be careful here. If I ever achieve the independent cruising lifestyle I'd likely be in the southern Pacific, plenty of places there where a proactive helping hand would make a difference. The problem I see is that local officialdom might take a dim view...and coming as an outsider I'm wary of thinking I'm the big wise bwana come to bless the savages with civilised enlightenment; the locals are the experts in surviving there, not me. My idea would be to find folks that are keen to work their own success, and help them out...for example setting up small businesses, and teaching English. Personally, I hate globalism and don't want to contribute to that scam, so I'd like to hear what you've found that works toward helping locals without drawing them into Babylon's net.
I have a friend in the Philippines that's trying to get some of the locals back to their old ways before the missionaries came in and introduced a monetary system to help these poor, uncivilized people join the modern world. Tribes that we're self sustained for hundreds or thousands of years are now poor beggars because of industry and modern civilization. These people are starving, have no food, and all of their farmland is being used to grow corn for biofuel. Simply because western cultures have convinced them they need money and television and material goods to be a real human beings. It's insanity. If anyone is interested in what's going on over there, and in all third world countries, message me and I'll give you a link, I don't want to promote here.
(Sorry for the derailment...)
__________________

__________________
ravenblood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 09:33   #48
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,342
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
Originally Posted by tager View Post
On the drug problem; why does the CIA keep importing it? (A CIA plane crashed recently with 4 tons of cocaine on board. That is something like 90 million USD in coke.)

Why does big Pharma keep producing the raw ingredients for methamphetamine?

Why are we so pumped full of pharmaceuticals for every known ailment, while healthy diet and healthy lifestyle are overlooked as factors?

Why is cannabis illegal?

Why is our tobacco poisoned?

Why did we invade Afghanistan, home of the largest poppy markets worldwide?

The same people pumping the water full of untreated sewage are pumping our population full of drugs. Then, in an act of shameless misdirection, they tell us that liveaboards are the problem!
I agree with much of what you're saying for sure. As I've pointted out in the past, the City of Seattle dumps millions of gallons of raw sewage into Puget Sound each year... and often doesnt even receive a fine.
However, liveaboard sewage IS a problem also... not a problem from the occassional boat user... but daily flushes are something else...
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 09:36   #49
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,342
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo55 View Post
What you describe is well known and long standing,and because of the locality,and stagnant waterways in some of these harbors and anchorages it becomes a pretty desperate problem.
The solution is a pretty simple one really,,a maneuverable waste treatment pump out barge,,or system which all marine residents long term or otherwise are forced to use via the use of monthly fee cards.

Those who refuse the service are invited to leave Poste Haste,,and those who have systems which are proven clean (air heads etc) get a pass.
I know this raises the specter of more rules and regs,,but really if you think about it,,its the only way forward.
Yeah, if something were done, it would protect us all from the "no anchoring nazis". It's their biggest ammunition. If all boats staying over a week had to have a service, then transient boats probably wouldnt have that much effect and could be given a waiver....
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 09:37   #50
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
for example setting up small businesses, and teaching English. Personally, I hate globalism and don't want to contribute to that scam, so I'd like to hear what you've found that works toward helping locals without drawing them into Babylon's net.
And teaching English isn't part of that?

Who's business model"

Gonna teach them some religion too?

The problem with humans is that they think they have an answer, implement change and then find there are unintended consequences. Oops, sorry.......
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 09:39   #51
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellie View Post
WAWow!!! A member for seven years and a total of two posts. Certainly a man of few words. There's a lot of posters on this board who could take a lesson from you.

Hey.....











Sorry......
















Can't do that.
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 09:53   #52
Registered User
 
ravenblood's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: North Carolina Coast
Boat: 1959 New Horizon 26
Posts: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy

And teaching English isn't part of that?

Who's business model"

Gonna teach them some religion too?

The problem with humans is that they think they have an answer, implement change and then find there are unintended consequences. Oops, sorry.......
Very well put. I agree completely
__________________
ravenblood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 10:10   #53
Vendor
 
witzgall's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 1,773
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Um, if you are going to introduce "Facts" to support your position, at least make them true, non-spinned facts?? I did a quick google search, the plane you refer to was downed in 2007 (not recently) , and was not owned by the CIA, but was chartered, several years before the downing, for rendition purposes. I found no link that showed that the CIA was actually importing drugs into the US.

Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by tager View Post
On the drug problem; why does the CIA keep importing it? (A CIA plane crashed recently with 4 tons of cocaine on board. That is something like 90 million USD in coke.)

Why does big Pharma keep producing the raw ingredients for methamphetamine?

Why are we so pumped full of pharmaceuticals for every known ailment, while healthy diet and healthy lifestyle are overlooked as factors?

Why is cannabis illegal?

Why is our tobacco poisoned?

Why did we invade Afghanistan, home of the largest poppy markets worldwide?

The same people pumping the water full of untreated sewage are pumping our population full of drugs. Then, in an act of shameless misdirection, they tell us that liveaboards are the problem!
__________________
witzgall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 11:15   #54
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,436
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Reply to Therapy:

Business model: Self employment. Adding value to a product or service. Yes, it's riskier than the dubious security of selling one's life by the hour, but the rewards are well worth it. I don't expect to shake the earth or set off a revolution in employment, and even if I help one person (often = family), it will be worth it. For example, one less Thai girl in the corporate sweatshops in those "freetrade zones", or in prostitution, is worth it. One less Indonesian dynamiting a reef, or copper-sulphating it for the aquarium enthusiasts, is worth it. One less druggie on the streets of Melbourne, addicted to the public teat, is worth it. Global mobility means a lot less restrictions as to location and all that goes with it. Worth a try rather than sitting back in one's own cruiserish permaholiday and bitching about the price of moorings in Spinayarn Marina.....

Language: They'll be getting some English anyway, such as my half-sister who learnt it mostly from TV subtitles...but learning it that way, they get the media/hollywood agenda with it. Destructive, if you haven't noticed the general trend in our "enlightened" western "cultures". Might as well introduce some competition to the field: old-style didactic teaching rather than the modern feelings-based socialising dumb-down; and use classics of English literature rather than the socialist pulp churned out today; and classic foundations of thought and expression such as logic, rhetoric, and dialectic debate (not the Hegelian dialectic, btw).

Religion? No, I hate religion. It comes from the latin "religare", to re-bind. Plenty of that about already, even amongst so-called atheists. Yes, I intend to preach the Gospel, and yes, I'll cop heat for it. It isn't religion, though....it is the opposite, because it frees mankind from attempting to fabricate their own righteousness. And it is virulently hated, because it puts us uppity humans in our place. Very few will ever be granted repentance, and there are many counterfeits amongst professing Christians...but nothing in God's plan ever fails. Even the apostacy is for a purpose.

Quote:
Therapy: The problem with humans is that they think they have an answer, implement change and then find there are unintended consequences. Oops, sorry.......
So what are you saying? It's all good, no need to do something/anything? That would seem to be your answer, and the consequence is business as usual. Please have a close look at the ideology of the Rio +20 conference recently held...the undercurrent there is that humans are a disease on earth. Prince Philip wants to be reincarnated as a killer virus to cut down the "overpopulation". Billy Gates let slip a broad hint of his penchant for genocide in a speech in the last couple of years, but if one looks at the activities of the Bill & Melinda Gates' Foundation one can see it in action. The overpopulation myth is setting us up for a great cull....but the folks to be culled seem to have no choice in the matter, and the ones suggesting it never seem to volunteer to do the decent thing they espouse. Kinda makes our little selfish squabbles about what latest gadget is vital for us to find our way to the next yottiebar a bit, well, sickening? I'm plainly guilty of it too, so high time for me to break out the sackcloth and ashes and quit it.
__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 11:16   #55
Registered User
 
cburger's Avatar

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nyack, NY
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 1,547
Images: 1
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
Originally Posted by tager View Post
There's always a movement afoot to curtail freedom.

We live in a medieval fiefdom, people don't like liveaboards because they don't pay tribute to the king. Of course people complain about the way their vessels look, or their unkempt appearance, etc.

This is what free people look like. Not rat-racers.
Amen brother
__________________
"All men are created equal, some are just more equal than others"
cburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 11:22   #56
Registered User
 
Dave and Leiann Scee's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Currently in Costa Rica
Boat: 1964 Cascade 29 "Classic Plastic"
Posts: 11
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Hi again all. The reason we have only posted twice in seven years is that we opened an account with CF back when we were dreaming of cruising. I was looking for info on what it requires to be "out there cruising" so just read articles and looked at boats for sale. Now after being out here for a year we have learned a few things. One is how to post here, although still can't seem to be able to put a picture up when posting. Two is that when one is visting third world (yes Mexico is third world) you can't help wanting to give back. So many cruiser that live in Mexico full time and ex-cruisers (left the hook down to long) organize projects and events as well finding some of our own. A couple examples are: Habitat for Humanity is active here and you can help build a modest home (only takes three weeks!). The owner is reqired to own his lot and put up one third the cost up front. So this requires many years of savings already. Then they are commited to putting in many hours to help others build homes, so not a give away! Another is fund raising through traditional dance and culture performances. This helps preserve cultural heritage, provides a means for physically challeged cruisers (were getting older) to give back, and is a fun and entertaining way to meet the locals. Funds are used for education, single mothers,healthcare and other projects that have been indentified (by locals) as an area of need. But back to the issue. In my home cruising area's (The Puget Sound in Wa. State) we also have anchored wrecks that people live on. They often end up on the beach after a storm or sink or cause a hazard to navagation. So I would support some type of regulaton to insure that 1. The vessel is capalble of moving under its own power (ie engine, sail,rowing). 2. That is have maintained ground tackle. 3. That is has some way to deal with it's solid waste (ie holding tank and pump out). 4. That it not be a anchored such as to be a hazard to navagation. After that we are free to roam the sea's and anchor where we find ourselves. If you not part of a solution, your part of the problem. Just saying
__________________
Living the Dream
Dave and Leiann Scee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 12:27   #57
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

The orginal discussion concerning the effect of derelict boats at anchor effecting anchoring rights has nothing to do with politics, nor class warfare. It is simply a matter of awareness that in certain parts of the country legislation is being introduced and passed that is effecting cruising sailors who move their boats en route from point A to B and their ability to anchor. No reasonable person could confuse a cruising vessel, even one poorly maintained, with a "derelict" or "liveaboard hulk." I witnessed this first hand in Miami just north of Dinner Key Channel where a homeless encampment of abandoned hulls housed an eclectic array of humanity. There was rampant drug and alcohol abuse, lack of sanitation devices with open discharge into the bay, incredible amounts of litter and garbage that floated in the water and drifted into the bay, frequent assaults, knifings and even a murder. Even those with unusually creative imaginations could not confuse these people with cruising sailors. And, the real reason Miami instituted a paid mooring anchorage was twofold: first, as a souce of revenue, but secondly, as a means to clean up a dirty, congested eyesore on their waterfront. When I said originally this has nothing to do with politics or class warfare, I meant that the issue is not political in the sense that a group of people are being discriminated against because of race, religion or politics but rather that a real problem exists that must be solved legislatively for the benefit of all,not the desires of a few. That is how Democracy works. The bottom line based upon the current thrust of waterfront communities is that unless this problem is addressed and resolved it will surely restrict and/or prevent our anchoring possibilities in the future and the freedom to freely move our vessels. This is the reality and it is not going away.
__________________
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 12:57   #58
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
And, the real reason Miami instituted a paid mooring anchorage was twofold: first, as a souce of revenue, but secondly, as a means to clean up a dirty, congested eyesore on their waterfront.
I see, an eyesore, NOT class warfare...
__________________
DeepFrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 13:51   #59
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
Reply to Therapy:

Business model: Self employment. Adding value to a product or service. Yes, it's riskier than the dubious security of selling one's life by the hour, but the rewards are well worth it. I don't expect to shake the earth or set off a revolution in employment, and even if I help one person (often = family), it will be worth it. For example, one less Thai girl in the corporate sweatshops in those "freetrade zones", or in prostitution, is worth it. One less Indonesian dynamiting a reef, or copper-sulphating it for the aquarium enthusiasts, is worth it. One less druggie on the streets of Melbourne, addicted to the public teat, is worth it. Global mobility means a lot less restrictions as to location and all that goes with it. Worth a try rather than sitting back in one's own cruiserish permaholiday and bitching about the price of moorings in Spinayarn Marina.....

Language: They'll be getting some English anyway, such as my half-sister who learnt it mostly from TV subtitles...but learning it that way, they get the media/hollywood agenda with it. Destructive, if you haven't noticed the general trend in our "enlightened" western "cultures". Might as well introduce some competition to the field: old-style didactic teaching rather than the modern feelings-based socialising dumb-down; and use classics of English literature rather than the socialist pulp churned out today; and classic foundations of thought and expression such as logic, rhetoric, and dialectic debate (not the Hegelian dialectic, btw).

Religion? No, I hate religion. It comes from the latin "religare", to re-bind. Plenty of that about already, even amongst so-called atheists. Yes, I intend to preach the Gospel, and yes, I'll cop heat for it. It isn't religion, though....it is the opposite, because it frees mankind from attempting to fabricate their own righteousness. And it is virulently hated, because it puts us uppity humans in our place. Very few will ever be granted repentance, and there are many counterfeits amongst professing Christians...but nothing in God's plan ever fails. Even the apostacy is for a purpose.



So what are you saying? It's all good, no need to do something/anything? That would seem to be your answer, and the consequence is business as usual. Please have a close look at the ideology of the Rio +20 conference recently held...the undercurrent there is that humans are a disease on earth. Prince Philip wants to be reincarnated as a killer virus to cut down the "overpopulation". Billy Gates let slip a broad hint of his penchant for genocide in a speech in the last couple of years, but if one looks at the activities of the Bill & Melinda Gates' Foundation one can see it in action. The overpopulation myth is setting us up for a great cull....but the folks to be culled seem to have no choice in the matter, and the ones suggesting it never seem to volunteer to do the decent thing they espouse. Kinda makes our little selfish squabbles about what latest gadget is vital for us to find our way to the next yottiebar a bit, well, sickening? I'm plainly guilty of it too, so high time for me to break out the sackcloth and ashes and quit it.

Not going to say anything in particular about each point becaue I will be breaking rules here.

Just, OH MY GAWD!
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 13:54   #60
Registered User
 
sailpower's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 784
Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
This discussion already has gone down the hole because people are throwing around the "assume" word.

I didn't see in the beginning anyone saying people assume liveaboards are dirty boat derelict people. What I read it as is that dirty derelict liveaboards are responsible for the push toward anchoring laws.

The problem isn't about all liveaboard anchorers. It's just that "all" are getting caught in the squeeze about the dirty derelict ones.
I went ahead and read all the posts but really should have just stopped here.

Well said.
__________________

__________________
sailpower is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:29.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.