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Old 14-08-2012, 21:58   #166
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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Originally Posted by s/vfootloose View Post
I posted earlier the results of allowing gov't.to solve the problem in Ga. We are heading in for the same in Fl. If we allow state and local gov't and waterfront property owners to solve the problem they will solve the problem by amputating the hand because of a splinter in a finger. It's crude but effective. It's also a disservice to local and visiting boaters both sail and power. Local boaters dont have the political clout to have much weight in avoiding this. The only way of avoiding this is for boaters to work together and self-police ourselves. We need to form groups of people with boating interests locally,regionly,and statewide. This needs to include indivdual boaters, boat clubs, yacht clubs, marine industry businesses, Boat US and form alliances with the coast guard, grouper troopers, and the local marine police. We have waterway clean up days each year and hundreds of people show up to clean tons of crap that have been thrown in the waters. If we as boaters did the same thing a few times a year regarding derelict boats etc. reporting them to the proper law enforcement agencies and then making them public to create an urgency with law enforcement to apply current laws in a timely manner maybe we could avoid more severe laws that affect all of us. It would make us all stronger politicaly if we worked as a group with common interests.
Ah! Finally someone to articulate my sentiment in a much more concise way

The only thing I would add is "we as boaters" is much too broad. It's more about each individual local community. And "we as individuals within a community"... Change always starts with ones self, then it catches on like wildfire.

The internet is far reaching, but the power is pretty difficult to focus on such small spaces. However, this forum is a great place to start, if only we could get a few more people to agree
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Old 14-08-2012, 22:01   #167
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Im thinking the same way,,anyhow i have had enough of this Ranting,If anyone wants to start an association to deal with these issues, I'm in and I'll back it up with my money, Until then my spleen is vented,and i'm on to the next Topic.


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Originally Posted by s/vfootloose View Post
I posted earlier the results of allowing gov't.to solve the problem in Ga. We are heading in for the same in Fl. If we allow state and local gov't and waterfront property owners to solve the problem they will solve the problem by amputating the hand because of a splinter in a finger. It's crude but effective. It's also a disservice to local and visiting boaters both sail and power. Local boaters dont have the political clout to have much weight in avoiding this. The only way of avoiding this is for boaters to work together and self-police ourselves. We need to form groups of people with boating interests locally,regionly,and statewide. This needs to include indivdual boaters, boat clubs, yacht clubs, marine industry businesses, Boat US and form alliances with the coast guard, grouper troopers, and the local marine police. We have waterway clean up days each year and hundreds of people show up to clean tons of crap that have been thrown in the waters. If we as boaters did the same thing a few times a year regarding derelict boats etc. reporting them to the proper law enforcement agencies and then making them public to create an urgency with law enforcement to apply current laws in a timely manner maybe we could avoid more severe laws that affect all of us. It would make us all stronger politicaly if we worked as a group with common interests.
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Old 14-08-2012, 22:07   #168
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

I'd be happy to head up, or join, an association in my area. Fortunately, we ony have maybe 3 derelicts to deal with. And I haven't even found them yet
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Old 14-08-2012, 22:09   #169
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

This thread is like navigating the shoals with a blindfold on, lol.
The issue of liveaboards on badly maintained boats and abandoned derelict boats are all mixed up and argued at cross purposes. These are two different but interrelated problems for the community generally and the boating community in particular.
People in need will seek shelter wherever they can and most in that situation are there because of circumstances that most of us never have to face. Living on derelict boats makes it harder for people to be given the assistance they need, and living in squalor often only adds to the problems of poverty traps and mental illness (usually undiagnosed). How those issues are addressed is a political issue that we as a (boating) community have little chance of influencing and will draw the attention of the mods.
However, the issue of derelict boats is an area where we can make a difference if the boating community acts together. We all have an interest in addressing this problem as it affects what we want to do and costs us money directly or indirectly. Hasards to navigation, boats at anchor, public opinion occupation of anchorages, justification for additional laws and taxes are just the tip of the pain it causes us. The thing is that it also causes pain for others and in that you can find friends and allies. For example Worst Marine have no value for derelict boats that have no money spent of them, but if space were available for x number of liveaboard or cruising yachts to anchor there they would be supportive. Think $$$$$$ it is the USA after all, lol
The reason why boats get abandoned are varied and well known to this forum so I wont go there. The solution is having a better, cleaner and cheaper (taking in to account external as well as internal costs) ways of disposing of boats that have a negative value to the owners. Most people will do the ”right thing” as long as it does not cost THEM anything, a lot will do the right thing as long as it does not cost them too much and or the likely plenties are high. I would have thought that the logical solution was to make it possible to surrender boats (at given locations).
The costs of getting a disposing of a boat would be lower due to increased efficiency of recycling and disposal that comes from scale of operations and the ability to generate some returns increase for the same reason. Money and enforcement resources would not need to be wasted reducing the cost to the community further. The link provided relates to E-Waste in Australia and has some similarities http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it-old/government-looks-at-e-waste-recycling-scheme/story-e6frgamf-1225783078840 .
Reducing the availability of abandoned and negative worth boats will increase the potential value of the remaining boats will reduce the chance of boats being used as floating cardboard houses which starts to address our other problem.
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Old 14-08-2012, 22:30   #170
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Good points.

I think a good starting place is the actual abandoned boats. Much easier to deal with in any beginning stages.

When it comes to dealing with people things get pretty murky pretty quickly. So just start with the boats, and see what type of awareness is organically created by those efforts.

In MD, the State puts 100% of boat registration fees towards managing their waterways. Pretty good policy if you ask me. If there was a way to "tax" an already existing fee (like say, yacht club dues!) and put that towards 'debris removal' that would be pretty fair. I mean, if people want the right to clean waterways, they should be putting something into it, right? I'm not saying create any new taxes, or fees, or whatever. But re-allocate already existing revenue streams towards it.

Not to mention, finding out where all that grant/fed money goes in the first place.
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Old 14-08-2012, 22:36   #171
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

In NZ we have a motorhome association. They require all new members to have a self containment certificate which is issued by their own volunteers. They have encouraged supermarkets and clubs to install dump stations. They put out a list of all the friendly places to stay. When govt officials got too officious they started buying up plots of land for parking and now the govt department in charge of public land is playing the game more fairly. They have representative to lobby govt and councils. Some small communities have embraced the organization as an economic benefactor. Those without self-containment can't stay on these properties.
Wouldn't it be good if the US had a Live-aboard organization like this?
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Old 14-08-2012, 22:40   #172
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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In NZ we have a motorhome association. They require all new members to have a self containment certificate which is issued by their own volunteers. They have encouraged supermarkets and clubs to install dump stations. They put out a list of all the friendly places to stay. When govt officials got too officious they started buying up plots of land for parking and now the govt department in charge of public land is playing the game more fairly. They have representative to lobby govt and councils. Some small communities have embraced the organization as an economic benefactor. Those without self-containment can't stay on these properties.
Wouldn't it be good if the US had a Live-aboard organization like this?
Well, we already have laws about these things. What we (each community) needs, is organizations dedicated to making sure those laws don't go unenforced.
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Old 14-08-2012, 22:49   #173
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

What we (as sailors) don't want, is the governments 'buying up' all the anchorages and turning them into parking lots that cost $200 a month to park in (like what's happening in FL).

That's why community outreach is so important. If people get together and come up with a better plan, other people will listen. If we sit back and do nothing, the government will make their own decisions (based on financial interests) and the result will be (as always) more expenses and less freedoms for boaters as a whole.
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Old 14-08-2012, 23:03   #174
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/vfootloose View Post
I posted earlier the results of allowing gov't.to solve the problem in Ga. We are heading in for the same in Fl. If we allow state and local gov't and waterfront property owners to solve the problem they will solve the problem by amputating the hand because of a splinter in a finger. It's crude but effective. It's also a disservice to local and visiting boaters both sail and power. Local boaters dont have the political clout to have much weight in avoiding this. The only way of avoiding this is for boaters to work together and self-police ourselves. We need to form groups of people with boating interests locally,regionly,and statewide. This needs to include indivdual boaters, boat clubs, yacht clubs, marine industry businesses, Boat US and form alliances with the coast guard, grouper troopers, and the local marine police. We have waterway clean up days each year and hundreds of people show up to clean tons of crap that have been thrown in the waters. If we as boaters did the same thing a few times a year regarding derelict boats etc. reporting them to the proper law enforcement agencies and then making them public to create an urgency with law enforcement to apply current laws in a timely manner maybe we could avoid more severe laws that affect all of us. It would make us all stronger politicaly if we worked as a group with common interests.
Present a "united front"(group with commen interests)What a novel idea!stop fighting the little fires and start fighting the big one...might get something good for a change...DVC
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Old 15-08-2012, 00:21   #175
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

I think that fighting the big fire is great but to get this to succeed it will have to start as a grassroots fight. I will look into starting in the morning a way to form a non-profit org. Then we have to get the media involved both internet and print. It won't be easy but it is possible if we work together.
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Old 17-08-2012, 17:50   #176
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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Very well put and gets right to the heart of the matter. Here in St. Pete, the Assistant DA has been the one really pushing for the new (anti-)anchoring laws, in an effort to make a name for himself. Meanwhile the city waters it's lawns with reclaimed water that is not safe for human consumption, (high coliform counts) says so on a little plaque right next to the park. Not to mention the homes all around me that have mysterious pipes pumping some kind of fluids out into the bay we are anchored at.
I agree, "VERY" well put, and CHEERS to Nemo55 for bringing this up.
-Bruce
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Old 18-08-2012, 00:40   #177
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

If any one is interested in the issue i would recomend looking at these links:
http://marinaassociation.org/sites/d...ts%20final.pdf

Wash., Ore. governors want help for derelict boats | KING5.com Seattle

http://www.uscg.mil/proceedings/spring2011/articles/28_Bright.pdf i think that the community taking control of the situation would be better than a government "solution".
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