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Old 25-11-2012, 11:54   #16
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

It was much cheaper to dump chamber pots in the street too, once upon a time, but we don't do that anymore...

There are reasons to do things that are not based on what is 'cheapest'.

Cheap is relative. Going to sewage systems has reduced medical expenses over the centuries by unknowable amounts...


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Old 25-11-2012, 12:22   #17
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

I'm just glad we can still buy the good bottom paint in Europe, you know... the environmentally unfriendly kind that actually works.

A couple of years ago, we had two coats of bottom paint applied to our boat in the San Francisco area, and within four weeks we saw growth and then needed to have the bottom cleaned by a diver every two weeks thereafter while in Long Beach, CA. The cost for the paint and application was over $2000 on a 45 ft boat.... money totally wasted.

Over here in Europe, they apply the good stuff. Total cost for two coats: $1100 on a 54 ft boat. It's been seven months and no sign of any growth even though the water is warmer than in Long Beach. The locals here, just haul out their boats once a year and hose off the bottom... no diving necessary.

It seems to me that the necessity to scrub the bottom every two weeks in California is actually what releases the heavy metals and biocides into the marine environment. Besides, the actual reason why the heavy metal concentrations are high in California harbors is primarily due to the presence of so many Naval ships and commercial container vessels which are exempt from the EPA rules for bottom paint toxicity. The heavy metals are not caused by the bottom paint on pleasure vessels.
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Old 25-11-2012, 12:37   #18
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Over here in Europe, they apply the good stuff. Total cost for two coats: $1100 on a 54 ft boat. It's been seven months and no sign of any growth even though the water is warmer than in Long Beach. The locals here, just haul out their boats once a year and hose off the bottom... no diving necessary.
Restrictions on anti fouling paint are, if anything, stricter in Europe than in the States. If your bottom does not need cleaning there, it is likely because the fouling conditons are very different. Temperature alone does not dictate fouling rates.

What is "the good stuff"? Generalities like that are meaningless and add nothing to this discussion.

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It seems to me that the necessity to scrub the bottom every two weeks in California is actually what releases the heavy metals and biocides into the marine environment.
Studies show that in-water hull cleaning using Best Management Practices does account for a percentage of the copper in the water column that orginates in anti fouling paint. But that percentage is quite low- on the order of 4%-5%. The rest of the copper comes from passive leaching out of the paint itself, which these paints are doing 24/7/365.


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Besides, the actual reason why the heavy metal concentrations are high in California harbors is primarily due to the presence of so many Naval ships and commercial container vessels
As with zeehag, this is merely your opinion, completely unsubstantiated by fact.

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The heavy metals are not caused by the bottom paint on pleasure vessels.
Hmmm... a few sentences ago you claimed that it was the frequent cleaning of anti fouling paints on pleasure craft that was responsible for the release of heavy metal and other biocides into the marine environment. Now you state that pleasure craft are not responsible for this pollution. Which is it? Could it be that you don't really understand the issue?
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Old 25-11-2012, 12:48   #19
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

My conclusions are based on common sense, having lived in both areas, having read the contents on the bottom paint cans and having observed the results first had along with talking to locals and shipyard workers.

There are no divers scrubbing the bottoms of pleasure crafts any where here in Europe. We've spent time in the English Channel, Spanish and French coasts.... no bottom scrubbers anywhere to be found. Our bottom paint works better and yes, it contains more heavy metals and biocides.
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Old 25-11-2012, 12:52   #20
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

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My conclusions are based on common sense, having lived in both areas, having read the contents on the bottom paint cans and having observed the results first had along with talking to locals and shipyard workers.


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There are no divers scrubbing the bottoms of pleasure crafts any where here in Europe. We've spent time in the English Channel, Spanish and French coasts.... no bottom scrubbers anywhere to be found. Our bottom paint works better and yes, it contains more heavy metals and biocides.
Again, what is this magic potion that you've found? Can't you even supply the product name?

BTW- I have had conversations with hull cleaners working in the U.K. So I would challange your claim on that point.
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Old 25-11-2012, 13:15   #21
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

Fsstbttms

Come over here to Europe and see for yourself. Nothing I say is going to change your mind.

Why does everyone who lives in California think it's some kind of eco-nirvana? I've lived in Southern California for over 30 years, and I've swam in the water in Long Beach marina... it's gross.... even more murky than in your picture. but the problem is not caused by the bottom paint on pleasure craft... it's caused by the LA river which empties into the harbor with all the run off waste from Los Angeles; the same with the San Francisco Bay area... run off waste.

Here in Europe, Menorca, Spain to be specific... the water is crystal clear and full of aquatic life despite the fact we use more a toxic bottom paint. The reason: Little to no run off waste.
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Old 25-11-2012, 13:44   #22
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

Jeezus- nobody said the marine environment in SoCal was being destroyed by anti fouling paint. And for some reason you still won't back up your claim of your great anti fouling paint with a product name. Yes, I'm sure it works well. And yes, I'm sure everything in Menorca is evironmentally wonderfull. But it would be nice if you had something to offer to the discussion other than opinion, conjecture and speculation.
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Old 26-11-2012, 01:44   #23
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

The only antifouling paint I know of that is better than copper is tributyltin, Tributyltin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Copper paint cannot be used on aluminum boats as it causes corrosion so it was used for these boats. It was also used on military ships, but tributyltin is now under a worldwide ban by the International Maritime Organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 26-11-2012, 06:18   #24
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Originally Posted by fstbttms
Jeezus- nobody said the marine environment in SoCal was being destroyed by anti fouling paint. And for some reason you still won't back up your claim of your great anti fouling paint with a product name. Yes, I'm sure it works well. And yes, I'm sure everything in Menorca is evironmentally wonderfull. But it would be nice if you had something to offer to the discussion other than opinion, conjecture and speculation.
JOTUN bought of a paint dealer . €120 euros for a 20litre drum ,we used half painting a 46ft hull between tides. total cost for a year free of fouling on the hull was €140 (the extra cost was a donation for the use of the slip). Did the same with an amel supermaramu.
As a diver of 25 years I have not seen anyone cleaning hulls in the water here in Ireland, bar myself. Not saying that it is not done, but definitely not on a regular basis. It's too bloody cold.
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Old 26-11-2012, 06:50   #25
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

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Originally Posted by sarafina View Post
It was much cheaper to dump chamber pots in the street too, once upon a time, but we don't do that anymore...

There are reasons to do things that are not based on what is 'cheapest'.

Cheap is relative. Going to sewage systems has reduced medical expenses over the centuries by unknowable amounts...
I think your comparisons are apples to oranges. A lot of these agencies for the environment seem to be self-perpetuating. Meaning they tend to form to support themselves. I'm not saying that copper does not pollute. But I'm wondering what the facts truly are and who did the studies and why.
I wouldn't be so quick to sign up for anything until I knew what everyone's agenda was.
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Old 26-11-2012, 07:35   #26
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

Agenda: The first words I read on that site were: "Hull Cleaning Permit"

Ka Ching.

(I'm going to hate myself for this) Fstbottms: How in the world can you say that the Navy and commercial vessels' bottom paints don't affect the entire area?
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Old 26-11-2012, 08:19   #27
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

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How in the world can you say that the Navy and commercial vessels' bottom paints don't affect the entire area?
Because they don't. The copper doesn't move around the bay. It (for the most part) stays in the area where it was introduced. That's a large part of the reason why Shelter Isand Yacht Basin is so severely impaired. It also has poor tidal flushing. So the copper in the water at SIYB comes almost entirely from the many hundreds of pleasure craft berthed there, not from any of the Naval or commercial vessels parked further down the bay.
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Old 26-11-2012, 09:39   #28
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

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Because they don't. The copper doesn't move around the bay. It (for the most part) stays in the area where it was introduced. That's a large part of the reason why Shelter Isand Yacht Basin is so severely impaired. It also has poor tidal flushing. So the copper in the water at SIYB comes almost entirely from the many hundreds of pleasure craft berthed there, not from any of the Naval or commercial vessels parked further down the bay.

"It would be nice if you had something to offer to the discussion other than opinion, conjecture and speculation." fstbttms
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Old 26-11-2012, 09:58   #29
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

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"It would be nice if you had something to offer to the discussion other than opinion, conjecture and speculation." fstbttms
Unfortunately for Kenomac, I don't offer uninformed opinion and can back up what I say. From the Schiff study in San Diego Bay-

Approximately 86% of the surface water in the marinas exceeded the state water quality threshold for copper.

Dissolved copper concentrations within marinas were influenced by proximity to sources and the potential for mixing and dilution. In this study, the areas with the highest dissolved copper concentrations tended to be associated with greatest vessel density and lowest water circulation. This is consistent with previous findings by others. For example, both Matthiessen et al. (1999) and Hall and Anderson (1999) found that marina(s)... had greater water column concentrations of dissolved copper than estuarine or open coastal areas.
Similarly, Hall et al. (1992) found a gradient of dissolved copper with distance away from a marina in Chesapeake Bay, MD. Copper doses... were always greater in marina than non-marina samples in Australia (Webb and Keough 2002).


http://www.environmental-expert.com/...sd_marinas.pdf

This list of copper sampling done in San Diego Bay by the California Department of Pesticide Regulation clearly shows that copper levels are much higher in marinas than in other parts of the bay.

http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/sur...%2004_3_15.pdf
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Old 26-11-2012, 10:17   #30
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Re: Copper verses Clean in San Diego

This example by fstbttms of a bogus environmental study funded most likely by the EPA to justify environmental tax increases in the form of additional fees and expenses, is one of many good reasons to leave California... which I have done.

We're not looking back, no regrets... there's plenty of other wonderful places to visit where common sense prevails over environmental activism.

Example: The state of California or rather San Diego mandates that boaters use a bottom paint which is expensive and doesn't work.... then a local business which cleans the bottoms of the boats... endorses the product and action of the government agency.

Ka Ching

This sort of nonsense has already bankrupted the state of California.
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