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Old 09-10-2012, 08:46   #31
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Originally Posted by robinco View Post
Columbus (or at least his reputation) seems to have been very lucky in how well history had treated him.

He was apparently a good sailor although not a very pleasant person to serve under. Probably James Cook was better in both respects.

There seem to have been the Irish Papars living in Iceland before the Norse arrived (nothing to do with the reputed Brendan the navigator).

There's also indications the Chinese may have found North America before Columbus.

Some evidence too that Polynesian navigators may have visited South America and possibly North America well before Columbus. They certainly colonized Easter Island, which looking at a map, must have been a pretty remarkable undertaking. Easter Island, or Rapanui, was for years said to have been "discovered" by the European Jacob Roggeveen, although more lately he's just acknowledged as the first European visitor. Columbus wasn't even that for North America, perhaps he was for the Caribbean Islands and a bit of the South American coast.

What about crazy old Thor Heyerdahl and his Ra expedition? He believed the Egyptians (under King Solomon) discovered Brazil using reed boats in biblical times. He built a reed boat and sailed it across the Atlantic-twice-in an attempt to prove the plausability of his theory.
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Old 09-10-2012, 09:53   #32
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

"I would be very surprised if any school was still teaching that Columbus was the 1st person to discover America. Well, not unless the school also teaches that he invented rocks on the 5th day" .

Yeah, actually they mentioned the Vikings etc way back when I was in school in the 60's. More emphasis was put on Columbus for some reason. It's all about promotion! Columbus had a good publicist.... Spain was a major power back then....
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:46   #33
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Originally Posted by virginia boy View Post
I always thought it curious that descriptions of Columbus by people who knew him more accurately depict a person of Scandinavian heritage. Maybe the Vikings "discovered" America twice?
Northern Italians are often light complected and red/auburn hair is fairly common.
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:22   #34
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Northern Italians are often light complected and red/auburn hair is fairly common.
My wife was raised in northern Italy and her father was from the south (Bari).

Actually, there are a lot of blond haired, light eyed Italians in southern Italy. Some of that Normand blood from when they invaded of course there is also some Morrish blood floating around down there too...

As far as Columbus, here is a quote about Columbus's discovery from Wikipedia that sums it up well:

"Though Columbus was not the first European explorer to reach the Americas (having been preceded by the Norse expedition led by Leif Ericson in the 11th century[6]), Columbus's voyages led to the first lasting European contact with the Americas, inaugurating a period of European exploration, conquest, and colonization that lasted for several centuries. They had, therefore, an enormous impact in the historical development of the modern Western world. Columbus himself saw his accomplishments primarily in the light of the spreading of the Christian religion.[2]"
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:31   #35
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Northern Italians are often light complected and red/auburn hair is fairly common.
Correct, Sicilians have a darker complexion.
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:34   #36
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the likelihood that Colon was actually a Jew, the child of wool merchants from Genoa. Perhaps his Jewish background accounts for much of the mythology and speculation about him, in part because he took pains to hide it, yet also did a number of things that clearly point to him being Jewish. There has been a great deal of research about this, books have been written and many scholars are convinced that he was indeed Jewish but the jury is still out. In any event, what is important to recall, as far as I believe, is that his voyages--and there were many, came about because he was a really gutsy and determined man--with a vision and he carried it through in remarkable ways that most sailors even today would not be able to emulate. Small wooden boats, no electricity, limited navigation devices, no charts of course, no knowledge of the distances to cross the ocean etc., etc.. Oh and another thing--the idea that Queen Isabella had to hock her jewels to pay for the voyages? Not likely. It was much more likely that she stole it from Jews whose wealth was confiscated when they were expelled--the same day Colon left for The New World!
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:45   #37
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Northern Italians are often light complected and red/auburn hair is fairly common.
That's because the Vandals (Germanic group) took that part away from the Romans. South Tyrol, which is part of Italy now, still has street signs where German is first and large, and Italian as a subscribt.

I was very surprised to see that even the Police cars said "Polizei" (German) in large in the same size as, "Polizia" (Italian) on them.

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Old 09-10-2012, 12:07   #38
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Correct, Sicilians have a darker complexion.


Sicily was a Norman country for hundreds of years.


Kingdom of Sicily - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:15   #39
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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You might like "The Codex Mendosa" !

The Codex Mendoza is mostly pictorial, but certainly a fascinating accompaniment to Bernal Diaz. I think everyone should be made to read his book in school, it's amazing. He was just a footsoldier, so his account reads very contemporary. Just a dude telling his story. It just happens to be one of the strangest stories ever told. Malinche and the rest went through some really crazy stuff.
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Old 09-10-2012, 13:10   #40
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Sicily was a Norman country for hundreds of years.


Kingdom of Sicily - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
After the fall of the Roman Empire, Italy and its protectorates were beseiged by the Germanic tribes from the West and the Vikings from the South. Besides trading in furs, amber and jewelry, the Vikings had a vigorous trade in slaves from Northern Europe. The light skinned, blue-eyed females from the North brought the most money among the Southern European and Muslim/Arabic buyers since they were considered exceptionally beautiful by the local populations. Even today, there are extant populations in the Mediterranean basin that look decidely Northern European in psyiogamy and skin color a thousand years later. And, Vikings being Vikings, as young men have been known to do since time immemorial, exercised every chance possssible to consort with the local female populations whether agreeably or by force. Very few groups of people, including the Huns and Ghengis Khan, have had such a dramatic and widespread impact over diverse human populations. As the Irish monks were known to pray " A furore Normanorum, Libera nos Domine-" Oh Lord, deliver us from the fury of the Northmen!
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Old 09-10-2012, 23:55   #41
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
After the fall of the Roman Empire, Italy and its protectorates were beseiged by the Germanic tribes from the West and the Vikings from the South. Besides trading in furs, amber and jewelry, the Vikings had a vigorous trade in slaves from Northern Europe. The light skinned, blue-eyed females from the North brought the most money among the Southern European and Muslim/Arabic buyers since they were considered exceptionally beautiful by the local populations. Even today, there are extant populations in the Mediterranean basin that look decidely Northern European in psyiogamy and skin color a thousand years later. And, Vikings being Vikings, as young men have been known to do since time immemorial, exercised every chance possssible to consort with the local female populations whether agreeably or by force. Very few groups of people, including the Huns and Ghengis Khan, have had such a dramatic and widespread impact over diverse human populations. As the Irish monks were known to pray " A furore Normanorum, Libera nos Domine-" Oh Lord, deliver us from the fury of the Northmen!
Vikings invaded from the south? I'm a pretty good student of early medieval history, and that is new information to me. Could you direct me to a source? Vikings did attack some Italian ports, but there was no invasion.
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Old 10-10-2012, 00:33   #42
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Northern Italians are often light complected and red/auburn hair is fairly common.
A lot of Romans were fair haired & blue eyed. And they got around a fair bit....
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:06   #43
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Not bad recognition when you consider:
A. He couldn't get his own country to support him
B. He was "contracted" by a foreign power
C His basic exploratory concept was incorrect
D He didn't land in the country which is the only one that honors him

and E--its named after an Italian. Ciao!!
Such country, Colombia, was created 3 centuries after his trips, so unless he had lots of omega-3, he couldn't. He did land on what was later called Gran Colombia, which included the territory of today's Venezuela. He visited Margarita Island and the nearby continental coast on his third trip.

I think one the most important achievements of Columbus was to put an empirical end to the flat Earth theories, something that the Greeks theorized milennia before him.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:06   #44
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

Don't you find it curious that he named the island after saints but the one he described as "the most beautifully land eyes have ever see" ,which he named after an obscure town in Portugal: Cuba.
Also his correspondence was in Portuguese or Spanish, not Italian.
And when returning from the "Indias" he went straight to the King of Portugal.
Conspiracy?
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:51   #45
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Vikings invaded from the south? I'm a pretty good student of early medieval history, and that is new information to me. Could you direct me to a source? Vikings did attack some Italian ports, but there was no invasion.
A bit later - but "us" Normans got around a bit .



And just to mention that the Eastern Roman empire only (finally) fell in the 14th Century.....if it had managed to hang on for another couple of hundred years it likely would still be with us .
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