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Old 08-10-2012, 15:38   #16
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Around here it's Indigenous People's Day
I would expect nothing less from San Francisco.

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Old 08-10-2012, 16:16   #17
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

Hey!!--nothing surprises me any more. The Portuguese can't even get credit for being the first invaders of Australia--long before us limeys got there.
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Old 08-10-2012, 16:56   #18
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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And why all this talk about the Vikings and Portuguese fishermen? People have migrated accross the Bering land bridge and established colonies in the Americas as early as 30,000 BC!

The significance of Columbus is that his voyages of discovery were well documented and publicized and opened the door for the European colonization of the Americas. Neither the Vikings nor the other pre-Columbian "discoverers" have accomplished this and so their historical impact was much less significant.
Ziggy, the earliest recorded migrations to the New World came from East to West when the Solutreans followed the ice sheets in skin boats from Southern France to North America (16,000 BP) and a yet unknown people followed the West Coast of North America in skin boats (14,800 BP) to Monte Verde, Chile where early habitation sites have been found but no definitive human artifacts. The Bering Strait migrations were roughly 12,000 BC.--much later. The latest anthropological findings indicate that the earliest inhabitants to North America were not "Native American/Indian" but early Causcasian populations. This has been confirmed by skeletal remains and DNA. In regards to the Vikings, if they were not "Europeans," what were they? The settlement at L'
Anse Aux Meadows, the first recorded Viking site in North America, along with settlements in Iceland and Greenland opened the door to further exploration by the Portuguese and later Columbus. To say that the Vikings historical impact was less than Columbus is not only incorrect, but patently absurd as the historical record reveals.
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Old 08-10-2012, 17:02   #19
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

yes the myth continues!

it was way to stick it to England
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Old 08-10-2012, 17:39   #20
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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The settlement at L'Anse Aux Meadows, the first recorded Viking site in North America, along with settlements in Iceland and Greenland opened the door to further exploration by the Portuguese and later Columbus. To say that the Vikings historical impact was less than Columbus is not only incorrect, but patently absurd as the historical record reveals.
I think you are exaggerating the historical significance of the Viking explorers and their influence on Columbus. They left very little in the way of records and they did not leave any permanent settlements west of Iceland and Greenland. To the best of my knowledge, Columbus was not aware of the existence of the American continent between Europe and India. He probably benefited from the Portuguese understanding of the Atlantic wind patterns, however. This knowledge was gained by the Portuguese in their exploration of the Eastern Atlantic, the Azores, and the coast of Africa.
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Old 08-10-2012, 17:47   #21
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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In roughly 1000 AD, Leif Erickson established a base at L'Anse Aux Meadows in Newfoundland and probably traveled as far south as Chesapeake Bay. Prior to that, the Vikings had established colonies in Greenland and Iceland. In 1424, Portuguese cod fishermen had sailed the waters of the New World as revealed in a new map/chart www.americanheritage.com/.../was-america-discovered-columbus discovered recently by cartographers. Columbus sailed to the New World (Bahamas-probably Semana Cay) in 1492. Why does History teach that Columbus discovered the New World when, in fact, others had been there before him? Does it matter?
Being a registered member of an American Indian tribe.... I can only agree with you! Oh... and "Welcome to North America" Viking!
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Old 08-10-2012, 17:56   #22
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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I would expect nothing less from San Francisco.

Mike
Ha Ha..lol..you guys out there had better beware ,we are liable to come and take over another one of your abandoned prisons!..
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Old 08-10-2012, 21:15   #23
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Ha Ha..lol..you guys out there had better beware ,we are liable to come and take over another one of your abandoned prisons!..
Can't! We turn them into tourist sites and make money on them. I understand the Native People's grafitti is a very popular sight on the island ; -)
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:12   #24
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

I would be very surprised if any school was still teaching that Columbus was the 1st person to discover America. Well, not unless the school also teaches that he invented rocks on the 5th day .

But notwithstanding that, I do think the voyage of Columbus was of a fundamental importance and whose impact extends to the Western world as we know it today. Whereas the earlier explorers had no such impact - mostly because they forgot to write anything down. or lost the piece of paper (or rock?!) they drew the map on .

Whether he deserves a public holiday is another matter.
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Old 09-10-2012, 06:10   #25
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

I always thought it curious that descriptions of Columbus by people who knew him more accurately depict a person of Scandinavian heritage. Maybe the Vikings "discovered" America twice?

Written Accounts of Columbus's Appearance

The Admiral was a well-built man of more than medium stature, long visaged with cheeks somewhat high, but neither fat nor thin. He had an aquiline nose and his eyes were light in color; his complexion too was light, but kindling to a vivid red. In youth his hair was blond, but when he came to his thirtieth year it all turned white.---Description by his illegitimate son, Ferdinand [Morison 1942: 44]

In the [1511] first edition of the biography of Columbus, the Libretto, there is no mention of the Admiral's appearance. In a later edition, however, the opening passage gives the earliest description, probably included by Angelo Trivigiano who was acquainted with the famous seaman, and who wrote, "Christopher Columbus, a Genoese, a man of tall and lofty stature, of ruddy complexion, of great intelligence and with a long face" [Thacher 1904:3] .

Columbus's second son Ferdinand should certainly be regarded as a reliable source as he traveled constantly with his father between the ages of 12 and 18. However, his description (at the start of this section) disagrees with other writers.

At the time of Columbus's triumphant entry into the city of Barcelona in 1493 after his first voyage, young Fernandez de Oviedo y Valdes or Oviedo was a page for the Spanish court. In his book, Historia General y Natural de Was Indias, he wrote that Columbus was of "good stature and appearance, taller than the average and strongly limbed: the eyes lively and other parts of the face of good proportion, the hair very red, and the face somewhat ruddy and freckled ...." (emphasis added). Yet Columbus was 41 years old when that event happened and according to his son had white hair. To his credit, Oviedo was considered a fine witness with "uncommon powers of observation." He sailed to America in 1513 and made remarkable illustrations of fauna and flora accompanied by a detailed description of the voyage [Morison 1942:42]. But since his account was published 40 years after the event, with the admission that what he wrote was "according to what I have learned from men of his nation," Oviedo's account is suspect [Thacher 1904:4].

Another historian of the day, Bartolome de las Casas, the "Historian of the Indies," knew Columbus quite well after his return from the New World. His description agrees with the other accounts except for the inclusion of a beard. He writes that "His form was tall, above the medium: his face long and his countenance imposing: his nose aquiline: his eyes clear blue: his complexion light, tending toward a decided red, his beard and hair were red when he was young, but which cares then had early turned white." Las Casas' journal, however, did not get published until 1875 [Thacher 1904: 4-6].

Despite the minor inconsistences in the above descriptions, it can be stated that most likely Columbus was a man who was tall, had a long face, a long nose, with clear eyes, and with either blond, red, or white hair.

Looks Are Deceiving: the Portraits of Christopher Columbus
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Old 09-10-2012, 06:20   #26
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

not all italians are dark.....
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Old 09-10-2012, 06:28   #27
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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not all italians are dark.....
But that's likely because da Vikings liked to spread da love .

Certainly the Normans (Norsemen) did - with an empire that reached from England to the Middle East.......all long ago lost - mainly by going native and interbreeding / integrating themselves into the locals.
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Old 09-10-2012, 08:27   #28
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

The significance of Columbus is that his voyages of discovery were well documented and publicized and opened the door for the European colonization of the Americas. Neither the Vikings nor the other pre-Columbian "discoverers" have accomplished this and so their historical impact was much less significant. Ziggy

Whenever we comment on the significance of a historical event, we must take into consideration the time element. When the Vikings made their very incredible and significant discoveries, they were doing so in what History calls the "Dark Ages." Trans-oceanic seafaring in Europe was minimal, national boundaries were vague and largely undefined, the Renaissance was over 400 years away, the world was a lawless, dangerous place and a group of hearty Norsemen developed the greatest sailing vessels known to date for both rivers and open ocean sailing and sailed these vessels throughout the Mediterranean, the North Atlantic, the Baltic, the inland waterways of Russia and eventually to the New World opening up trade routes, plundering and pillaging along the way. Their open ocean vessels sailed regularly at 12 knots--faster than any ships of its time and their river boats sailed into the Thames, the Seine, the Volga. To negate this important historical impact as less significant than Columbus is a personal opinion not based in the records of History. On the other hand, Columbus' significant discoveries were also exceptional for his time but in a historical context they occured during the greatest flowering of Civilization known as the Renaissance. The world was a much more knowlegeable place than 500 hundred years previously and science and technology had advanced to very significant levels. To compare the voyages of the Vikings to those of Columbus would be analagous to comparing the first flight of the Wright brothers to Neil Armstrong's first step on the moon. It is an unfair comparison since the science and technology of the respective periods were so vastly different. In History there is fact and opinion. The fact is that the Vikings advanced the known boundaries of the universe at a time when Science and Technology were in their infant stages. Only unfounded personal opinion would contradict their accomplishments.
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Old 09-10-2012, 08:38   #29
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Here in Seattle it's just a day off for the post office and bankers.
But down in Ballard it a whole different story.
.

Lief there is just at the head of my dock. They just added a new rune stone. Crazy Norwegians think Leif made it all the way to the west coast. I love the way he's staring out over the water to the west like he wants to keep going to Japan!

Anyone here read the Diario? It's fascinating reading, though obviously much has to be taken with a grain of salt. Almost as good as Benal Diaz' "The Discovery and Conquest of Mexico", which is one of the most fascinating historical documents I've ever read, and one of the few surviving pieces of literature from the period of the conquistadors that was NOT written by a monk.


Diario de Cristobal Colon (the Diary of Christopher Columbus), (0844272493), Andrade, Marcel (Adopted By) Andrade, Marcel (Adopted By), Textbooks - Barnes & Noble
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Old 09-10-2012, 08:41   #30
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Re: Columbus Day: The Myth Continues

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Lief there is just at the head of my dock. They just added a new rune stone. Crazy Norwegians think Leif made it all the way to the west coast. I love the way he's staring out over the water to the west like he wants to keep going to Japan!

Anyone here read the Diario? It's fascinating reading, though obviously much has to be taken with a grain of salt. Almost as good as Benal Diaz' "The Discovery and Conquest of Mexico", which is one of the most fascinating historical documents I've ever read, and one of the few surviving pieces of literature from the period of the conquistadors that was NOT written by a monk.


Diario de Cristobal Colon (the Diary of Christopher Columbus), (0844272493), Andrade, Marcel (Adopted By) Andrade, Marcel (Adopted By), Textbooks - Barnes & Noble
You might like "The Codex Mendosa" !
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