Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-12-2015, 07:11   #61
Registered User
 
sparrowhawk1's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Miami Beach Fl
Boat: Colombia Cc 11.8
Posts: 1,252
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

The grapevine from maimi is that the condo owners form across the canal put pressure on the city. There's also a fat cat on sunset harbour who anchored like 20 small sailboats (without masts or motors and they're now covered in guano) so no one could anchor in front of his house. Boy do they stink and look like s*** but he has political clout.
__________________

__________________
sparrowhawk1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 07:59   #62
cruiser

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 285
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

every time I see one of these 'anchoring rights' debates I find myself wondering whether those who rail against their 'rights' being taken would be just fine with someone parking, and living full time, in an RV parked randomly across the street from their land dwelling. A nice, well kept RV, for that matter...

...and, admiralty rights have to do with interstate commerce and commercial shipping, not private, recreational boats...
__________________

__________________
AD28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 08:42   #63
Registered User
 
Davy J's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Tampa Bay
Boat: Gemini 105Mc
Posts: 106
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

Quote:
I find myself wondering whether those who rail against their 'rights' being taken would be just fine with someone parking, and living full time, in an RV parked randomly across the street from their land dwelling. A nice, well kept RV, for that matter...
Good grief.................. not the RV comparison again.....

The two have nothing to do with each other................

OP, OP, oh where art thou OP..............
__________________
Davy J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 08:50   #64
Senior Cruiser
 
newhaul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 3,987
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

I hope everyone realises that the people on these councils that make the rules read these forums as well. The op just posted the one post and rather cryptic at that. For all we know he is on that council and using us to do his work for him to cause us grief in that area. Careful what you post as possible solutions to the issues.
__________________
newhaul is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 08:55   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 278
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

I think this is an issue that affects our community, so having an open and frank discussion about it can only be a GOOD thing.

You can be part of the solution, part of the problem, or among the spectators who scratch their heads wondering what happened, but complaining if the solution affects you.
__________________
WindwardPrinces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 09:16   #66
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I'm not sure what your point is. The couple of people I referred to have a long and public history in this matter and have even had trouble with the police and corruption investigations because of their actions. It is well-documented for many years now, so you can go see for yourself.

I'm not deriding capitalism, or even painting with a broad brush. I specifically pointed out two people out of the thousands who have water front property in the area, along with a few politicians who are documented to have corruption/nepotism issues in this matter.

I guess in your Ayn Rand world view, the above causes cognitive dissonance.

Mark
Mark,
Frequently, many of us on this Forum forget that "cruisers" are a special interest group and do not necessarily represent the needs, desires and values of mainstream America. We tend to be protective of our assumed rights (as all interest groups are wont to do) and believe that if it is good for us, therefore, it must be for the common good as well. This, of course, is a non sequitur. The real issue to me is to find a fair and equitable solution whereby both homeowners, who pay dearly for their waterfront properties in initial cost and taxes, and cruisers, who desire the freedom of anchorage, have an equitable compromise that satisfies both agendas. This can only be accomplished when the homeowners do not feel threatened and/or angered by the presence of liveaboard/derelict vessels and cruisers, en route, can take advantage of a protected anchorage with access to shoreside amenities. Although I am not an advocate of government regulation, it seems that some form of regulation and enforcement is necessary to satisfy both parties concerns and needs. In regards to your initial statement "I'm not sure what your point is," perhaps my attempt at humour was misunderstood. I believe it was the great French novelist Honore de Balzac who once said, "Life without humor is a sad life, indeed," . . . but then again perhaps it was Alfred E. Neuman. Good luck and good sailing, Captain Rognvald, captive in a cornfield.
Attached Images
 
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 09:30   #67
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 278
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
Mark,
Frequently, many of us on this Forum forget that "cruisers" are a special interest group and do not necessarily represent the needs, desires and values of mainstream America. We tend to be protective of our assumed rights (as all interest groups are wont to do) and believe that if it is good for us, therefore, it must be for the common good as well. This, of course, is a non sequitur. The real issue to me is to find a fair and equitable solution whereby both homeowners, who pay dearly for their waterfront properties in initial cost and taxes, and cruisers, who desire the freedom of anchorage, have an equitable compromise that satisfies both agendas. This can only be accomplished when the homeowners do not feel threatened and/or angered by the presence of liveaboard/derelict vessels and cruisers, en route, can take advantage of a protected anchorage with access to shoreside amenities.
Seems to me that what you've described there are TWO special interest groups. Cruisers and waterfront homeowners.

The general public, for the most part, isn't aware of the issue and doesn't care about it.
__________________
WindwardPrinces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 09:32   #68
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindwardPrinces View Post
Seems to me that what you've described there are TWO special interest groups. Cruisers and waterfront homeowners.

The general public, for the most part, isn't aware of the issue and doesn't care about it.

So, recreational boating is the equivalent to home ownership in the US? Please clarify.
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 09:42   #69
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 278
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
So, recreational boating is the equivalent to home ownership in the US? Please clarify.

I didn't say they were equivalent. I said that cruisers and waterfront property owners were special interests.

But if you want to put a fine point on it, they're both organized groups, they both consist of voters, and both have rights in the United States.

Since this happens to be an issue that affects both groups, I'd expect them both to be paying attention to the issue.
__________________
WindwardPrinces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 09:48   #70
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
So, recreational boating is the equivalent to home ownership in the US? Please clarify.
In the US, the IRS counts our boat as a domicile. When we had a mortgage on it, we received a homeowner tax deduction. Depending on which state one lives in, people living on boats pay property taxes. People living on boats are often registered to vote in that area, pay payroll taxes if they work locally, receive tax reductions for installing residential solar, etc.

So yes, I would say that they are often legally and functionally equivalent.

Would you suggest that owning a recreational ski cabin or lake cabin is not equivalent to home ownership?

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 09:53   #71
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
In the US, the IRS counts our boat as a domicile. When we had a mortgage on it, we received a homeowner tax deduction. Depending on which state one lives in, people living on boats pay property taxes. People living on boats are often registered to vote in that area, pay payroll taxes if they work locally, receive tax reductions for installing residential solar, etc.

So yes, I would say that they are often legally and functionally equivalent.

Would you suggest that owning a recreational ski cabin or lake cabin is not equivalent to home ownership?

Mark
Mark,
Do you think your experience represents the majority of people who own boats or is, perhaps, a small percentage?
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 10:01   #72
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

No clue, but that wasn't the question you asked.

The reality is that boats are treated as domiciles legally and functionally. Therefore, they are equivalent to home ownership.

Would you be having a similar argument about someone's little A-frame lake cabin surrounded by a majority of million dollar castles whose owners think the A-frame is "ruining their view"? How about if the residents of that A-frame lived a different lifestyle that wasn't "appropriate" to the others (but legal)?

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 10:13   #73
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
No clue, but that wasn't the question you asked.

The reality is that boats are treated as domiciles legally and functionally. Therefore, they are equivalent to home ownership.

Would you be having a similar argument about someone's little A-frame lake cabin surrounded by a majority of million dollar castles whose owners think the A-frame is "ruining their view"? How about if the residents of that A-frame lived a different lifestyle that wasn't "appropriate" to the others (but legal)?

Mark
Mark,
So, by your reasoning, the transient cruisers anchored behind the homes should have the same rights/benefits as the homeowners who pay taxes locally and contribute to the upkeep/betterment of the development/community? Unlike the A-frame owner you cited above, the cruisers do not own the water and they do not pay taxes to the locality. So, here lies the rub.
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 10:34   #74
Senior Cruiser
 
Captain Bill's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the boat
Boat: Endeavourcat Sailcat 44
Posts: 2,313
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
Mark,
Do you think your experience represents the majority of people who own boats or is, perhaps, a small percentage?
This might not apply to the majority of recreational boats but then again the majority of recreational boats are not cruisers. I believe this is quite a common situation for cruisers. It certainly is for us.

I think the solution for Miami Beach is pretty simple, build a dinghy dock and charge people for using it. The city has city owned parking structures where a space is available for $1 or $2 an hour depending on location. You get a price break if staying a whole day. If the city can put up a multistory parking structure and charge a small fee for it's use then a dinghy dock should not be a major issue. I don't think we should be treated any differently than any other visitor to the city. If they charge a car $2 an hour for a space, then $2 an hour for a dinghy dock is not unreasonable.
__________________
Captain Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 10:37   #75
Registered User
 
Davy J's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Tampa Bay
Boat: Gemini 105Mc
Posts: 106
Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

Quote:
So, by your reasoning, the transient cruisers anchored behind the homes should have the same rights/benefits as the homeowners who pay taxes locally and contribute to the upkeep/betterment of the development/community?
Ok, I'll take a swipe at this...........
I own a boat and am a cruiser. I also own waterfront property in Florida. So by your reasoning, since I pay property taxes, I should be able to dictate what my neighbor can and can't do behind my property on the waterway??? Am I getting this correctly?
__________________

__________________
Davy J is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
miami

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crew Available: Belgian couple looking to be deckhand from Colon to Panama City (Panama Canal) DieterRoussel Crew Archives 1 09-02-2014 16:21
Transiting Panama canal-Colon to Panama City desertsailor Other 18 31-05-2013 23:23
Theft and/or Breakins Around Miami and Miami Beach ? off-the-grid Liveaboard's Forum 9 02-02-2011 08:06



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:44.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.