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Old 07-12-2015, 10:34   #16
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

What IS a derelict boat?

What is a derelict home?

1st - define anchorages by coordinates.
2nd - define a time frame by which a boat is considered to be a "moved" or "not moved"
3rd - find intersection between the two to determine what boats are to be subject to regulation
4th - Determine which boat qualities need to be reached by those under regulation
5th - Enforce regulations

Last I looked it is still the governments responsibility to prove guilt not the other way around.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:17   #17
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

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Having used Miami as a home base for ten years, I fully understand their real and continuing problem with derelict boats and the rights of homeowners.
What are the problems, and what are the rights of homeowners? Do homeowners have the right of an unimpeded water-view?

If a boat isn't attractive, should it be removed from the homeowner's view?

I get both sides, but it seems like a compromised solution might be in order. If we're not careful, we'll give up rights to the state that we might not want to have given up.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:18   #18
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

As seasonal cruisers to Miami Beach, I would be in favor of a permit to "park" a dingy with some kind of reasonable fee attached if this would satisfy the "powers that be" to access Miami Beach. (Thinking this would be along the lines of putting money in a parking meter.) As seasonal cruisers we spend money....lots of money on groceries, fuel at the marina, movies, restaurants, wine, hardware, marine supplies, Best Buy, the list goes on and on. We have also had three occasions of couples visiting us in Miami Beach...not staying on our boat...but renting places in town and spending money on all of those things tourists do - hotel rooms, food, drink, and merchandise. Hope the City Council realizes that we park on Collins Canal in order to access the many retail establishments that are looking for customers to spend money on their goods and services. Miami Beach is a tourist destination....and we are tourists!!!!
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:20   #19
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboss View Post
What IS a derelict boat?

What is a derelict home?

1st - define anchorages by coordinates.
2nd - define a time frame by which a boat is considered to be a "moved" or "not moved"
3rd - find intersection between the two to determine what boats are to be subject to regulation
4th - Determine which boat qualities need to be reached by those under regulation
5th - Enforce regulations

Last I looked it is still the governments responsibility to prove guilt not the other way around.

Z,
These are all good points you have stated. However, in a civil society there must be laws that will regulate the welfare of all people. The above items must be addressed before any real changes will be made. Self enforcement does not work. Therefore, government must do that which the people cannot do and, of course, address all of its attendant problems. Good luck and good sailing.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:24   #20
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

Some places require that the vessel be in condition to navigate at any time under it's own power. It seems to me that is a good solution.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:30   #21
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

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What are the problems, and what are the rights of homeowners? Do homeowners have the right of an unimpeded water-view?

If a boat isn't attractive, should it be removed from the homeowner's view?

I get both sides, but it seems like a compromised solution might be in order. If we're not careful, we'll give up rights to the state that we might not want to have given up.
Agree.
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Old 07-12-2015, 12:07   #22
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

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Some places require that the vessel be in condition to navigate at any time under it's own power. It seems to me that is a good solution.
So for a sailboat, it just needs a sail.

I don't think that's what the people who are really pushing this are after.
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Old 07-12-2015, 13:26   #23
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

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Some places require that the vessel be in condition to navigate at any time under it's own power. It seems to me that is a good solution.
A rowing dinghy? How about a canoe?

I don't think propulsion is a good metric. If can drive past Mansions that look beautiful outside but don't even have a staircase, I'm sure the neighbors just don't care. Lots of boats must be anchored specifically because of propulsion issues. Boats that have propulsion issues can get towed for free to a designated free anchorage near a facility that is suitable for servicing the problem. They may remain there indefinitely or until they are at risk of sinking.

One possible regulation may be that boats under regulation need only not be eye-sores based upon the esthetic values of how the boat was originally constructed outside of normal wear and tear. Another may be anchored in such a way that the anchoring gear remains serviceable - like automobiles that is largely at the discretion of the person doing the inspection.
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Old 07-12-2015, 13:29   #24
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

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So for a sailboat, it just needs a sail.

I don't think that's what the people who are really pushing this are after.

Princes,
I can assure you from first-hand experience that the majority of those derelict sailboats either 1.) do not have sails, or 2.) if they do, they are not functional sails. And, it would be highly unlikely that anyone aboard would know how to use them. The boats are first and foremost derelict shells for living and the people who live aboard are not cruising sailors. Good luck and good sailing. P.S. Can you imagine one of these floating debris fields tacking up and down a channel playing bumper pool with million dollar yachts and piers?
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Old 07-12-2015, 13:36   #25
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

USCG won't bother unless they are anchored in a navigable water way and an obstruction.


Sausalito Ca. continue the road ways in the city to go under the water and thus they get a parking ticket from the local cops


pretty creative although the problem still exists but to a lesser degree than before
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Old 07-12-2015, 14:08   #26
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

I'm just responding to one of the posts that stated that the public land belongs to MB above the high water IM Canadian but I hope the land belongs to US Citizens as does public land in Canada belongs to Canadian citizens so therefore MB and other places are banning there own citizens from using public land that was paid for by taxes from the rich and poor alike
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Old 07-12-2015, 14:30   #27
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

"but I hope the land belongs to US Citizens "
You'll have a rough time visiting the US if you don't read the full visitor's guide first. Just as you have different provinces in Canada, we have 50 "sovereign" states, eleven insular possessions (i.e. war prizes), and the District of Columbia. Some follow French precedent and the Napoleanic Code. Others were acquired from Spain and follow Spanish tradition. The bulk of the States follow English common law.


"We The People" own many things, but not all of the land. Not even all of the beaches.
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Old 07-12-2015, 14:35   #28
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

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Some places require that the vessel be in condition to navigate at any time under it's own power. It seems to me that is a good solution.
I know places where one is allowed to anchor/moor for a set number of days and needs to move after that period. One can move just one hundred meters and drop anchor again.

Anyone not moving is officially ordered to move within a day. Those who don't follow get into trouble.
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Old 07-12-2015, 14:42   #29
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

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Princes,
I can assure you from first-hand experience that the majority of those derelict sailboats either 1.) do not have sails, or 2.) if they do, they are not functional sails. And, it would be highly unlikely that anyone aboard would know how to use them. The boats are first and foremost derelict shells for living and the people who live aboard are not cruising sailors. Good luck and good sailing. P.S. Can you imagine one of these floating debris fields tacking up and down a channel playing bumper pool with million dollar yachts and piers?
I'm not so familiar with the problem as to precisely understand the nature of the issue in Miami. I do know that the laws that they're discussing will affect all cruisers.

Do you have a source that describes the boats you're talking about? Is there a reason that they aren't affected by current laws? Aren't there laws regarding impeding public waterways? Seems like that might be a way to go.

I do know we need to be careful, though. It recently came to my attention that the Florida legislature passed an ordinance that prevents local ordinances limiting the discharge of firearms when some yahoos were hunting ducks 150 yards from houses in my community. They were shooting towards the houses, but law enforcement can't charge them unless the shot actually lands in your yard, and you file a complaint.

That reminded me that we need to pay very careful attention to the Florida legislature, as we don't really know who is pulling whose strings.
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Old 07-12-2015, 14:55   #30
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Re: City Commissioner response to Collins Canal in Miami Beach

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I'm just responding to one of the posts that stated that the public land belongs to MB above the high water IM Canadian but I hope the land belongs to US Citizens as does public land in Canada belongs to Canadian citizens so therefore MB and other places are banning there own citizens from using public land that was paid for by taxes from the rich and poor alike
I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make. The land above the high water line that is covered under the recently passed municipal code is owned by MB, which I believe you are trying to state actually belongs to the citizens. You may be correct, but the citizens of MB elected a group of individuals to make rules about the 'public land use' within MB's jurisdiction. And those new rules disallow mooring a boat to a MB owned property and also disallow using MB owned property to disembark from a boat. AFAICT, they are treating everyone the same, local citizens and visitors from afar. It seems that MB citizens feel it's a fair trade-off, especially those that despise anchored vessels.
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