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Old 12-05-2014, 16:08   #121
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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?????
try to keep up ............................ so you can explain it to me later
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Old 12-05-2014, 16:16   #122
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Like so many rush-to-judge scenarios, (and from a bemused distance) this seems to have been a salutary example of Chinese whispers, but even now we have some solid info, it continues:

Eric mentions a broach, and a bunch of people start talking "knockdown"
One is caused by a stalled rudder, the other by a breaking crest abeam, and/or a sudden spike in windstrength. Most sailors, even cruising sailors, will see more broaches than knockdowns, generally by one or more orders of magnitude.
Eric mentions water ingress as a result of the broach, and a bunch of people start talking "failure of the hull-deck join".
Use whatever terminology makes you feel good. But if the rail is in the water enough to put the mainsail under and rip off solar panels mounted on the stanchions, you've been knocked down.

As for the other Chinese whispers (whatever that is) 60-70 gallons of water coming into your boat is a sign of some serious damage. He said it came from a crack near the side-deck and gunwale. What should this bunch of people call that?

I guess I'm not seeing what you're seeing.
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Old 12-05-2014, 16:16   #123
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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My guess is that he is talking about being hove-to after the incident. Don't know about his boat, but our boom isn't out far enough when hove-to to hit the water like happened to them.

Also, with our fin keel, we use no jib and just the third reef to heave-to, but we also set our preventer as we need to hold the boom out and down for it to work.

Matt
Interesting, Matt, Thanks for chiming in.

This is a technique almost no-one on the www seems to know about (refer link below*). It's my preferred method in many routine instances of heaving to, and sometimes the only way which works reliably for 'difficult' underbodies, but I've never yet used it in really bad conditions

On the boats I've sailed we've always gone to a trisail, except once when the mast track was not usable and we used a jib only (which worked fine in the situation - plenty of wind, big rolling greybeards, but all from the same direction).

What's the worst conditions you've used this method in, and how far from the midline do you generally have the boom?


* Heaving-To, Do you do it?
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Old 12-05-2014, 16:17   #124
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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try to keep up ............................ so you can explain it to me later

Rotfl
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Old 12-05-2014, 16:20   #125
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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As for the other Chinese whispers (whatever that is) 60-70 gallons of water coming into your boat is a sign of some serious damage.

That was just initially, wasnt it? Not each day thereafter? And then only when the rail dipped in the water. So sailing more upright would have stopped any ingress?
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Old 12-05-2014, 16:25   #126
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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That was just initially, wasnt it? Not each day thereafter? And then only when the rail dipped in the water. So sailing more upright would have stopped any ingress?
The rescuers in their press conference were talking about continually pumping seawater from the boat while they were aboard. They said it wasn't life-threatening, but it was constant. So the boat was continually shipping water.

Then RH mentioned 60-70 gallons...which is a pretty fair amount of water...especially coming in from an opening at deck level.

So who knows?
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Old 12-05-2014, 16:40   #127
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

The logical question is.... What is the proper damage control for a partial deck-hull joint failure? What should a reasonably well outfitted vessel have on-board to address this?
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Old 12-05-2014, 16:52   #128
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Interesting, Matt, Thanks for chiming in.

This is a technique almost no-one on the www seems to know about (refer link below*). It's my preferred method in many routine instances of heaving to, and sometimes the only way which works reliably for 'difficult' underbodies, but I've never yet used it in really bad conditions

On the boats I've sailed we've always gone to a trisail, except once when the mast track was not usable and we used a jib only (which worked fine in the situation - plenty of wind, big rolling greybeards, but all from the same direction).

What's the worst conditions you've used this method in, and how far from the midline do you generally have the boom?


* Heaving-To, Do you do it?

I'm guessing I got it from your post as we never really used it until we started cruising. We only heave-to for breaks, to work on something, or to wait for sunlight when entering ports. Never had the need to do it in big seas, and highest wind I have used it in was around 30knts. In a big blow I'll just turn and run anyway.

Matt
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Old 12-05-2014, 16:52   #129
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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The logical question is.... What is the proper damage control for a partial deck-hull joint failure? What should a reasonably well outfitted vessel have on-board to address this?
Another boat.
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Old 12-05-2014, 16:56   #130
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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It all depends on the conditions really. If winds are light - you're absolutely right. But that wasn't the case. Here's RH's description of the conditions:



If you're getting hit by repeated squalls that significantly change the wind/sea direction and you have your boom prevented for one specific direction - you're very, very vulnerable to a knockdown when that squall hits...especially if no one is at the helm.

Crash gybes are certainly dangerous and destructive as you say, but this set-up (preventer in wildly shifting conditions and no one at the helm) has just been shown sufficient to cause catastrophic structural damage to a (seemingly) heavily built boat.

The thing I still don't quite get is using the preventer in the first place if you're hove to. Don't most boats fore-reach in a hove-to condition, correct? And if so, why use a preventer? Maybe that's what you mean, RH, by saying you should have stayed more active on the helm.
I'm on somewhat shaky ground here. I've done some reading and been in some heavy weather, but I'm by no means an expert.

That said, I think that the conventional wisdom is that preventers are used in heavy weather so that if the boat gybes, the boom doesn't crash across. The boat will get pinned, and you will then release the boom across in a controlled manner using the preventer, stand the boat up and go on your way.

I have read posts from more than one very experienced person who has disagreed with this conventional wisdom, but I think a poll of offshore sailors would have the majority saying that preventers are used in heavy conditions.

I've never heard of another case of dragging a boom causing damage. I honestly can't understand how it could have. I don't think Eric knows either. He just knows he got knocked down, dragged the boom and there was damage. Not how it happened exactly or whether there was some other mitigating factor. This just shouldn't happen, but it did.
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Old 12-05-2014, 17:12   #131
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Snore:

There are some products that seal in spite of the water: Splash Zone underwater epoxy; and there is epoxy putty; finally, there is Seal Once. We have used bothe the SZ and the Seal Once. They performed as stated. But IMO, the SO is just horrid to remove when you want to make a better fix.

In the case of Rebel Heart, if the crack were opening and closing, it would be a difficult fix to make, and should be thought of as extremely temporary.

To the guy above who said it was a knockdown rather than a roll down, I don't think it matters very much. Eric has the right of it, he couldn't see exactly what happened. Bad noises, holding on very tight, then the inevitable damage assessment.

We had a spreaders in the water roll down one time. Such events are momentarily disorienting the first time--It was scary seeing water pour in the dorade 18" from the mast! In our case, no structural damage was done to the boat, broke off our auxiliary on the windvane, bashed in the dodger windows. Below, some thing escaped their stowed positions. It is a lot of auditory and visual input, plus your body holding on and walking up the side of the boat. Not recommended. But if it happens again, you sort of know what to expect, and that will be a different experience.

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Old 12-05-2014, 17:16   #132
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Dragging the boom and causing it to buckle is (like broaching ) a factor primarily of speed. If you are jogging along and dip the boom, it's not going to bust a decently sized boom.

Occasionally boats with long booms and high speed /surfing capability, but which are not built like a 'skimming dish', will dip the boom in the bow wave, it's so high and coming from so far aft.

People who sail fast or have skinny booms should consider an end-boom preventer, but speaking for myself I prefer the adaptability of a mid boom tackle on each side, led to a lazy secondary winch, and almost always have a preventer snugged offshore, unless hard on the wind (and occasionally even then).

Especially in shifting conditions, and/or a slop.

The thing I like about a mid boom preventer is that (unlike a boom brake, or an end boom setup) you can arrest the boom at any point in the gybe, if something hangs up or changes.
And you can use it to stabilise the boom when close-hauled, say when putting in a reef or heaving to.
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Old 12-05-2014, 17:34   #133
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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The thing I like about a mid boom preventer is that (unlike a boom brake, or an end boom setup) you can arrest the boom at any point in the gybe, if something hangs up or changes.
And you can use it to stabilise the boom when close-hauled, say when putting in a reef or heaving to.

We have a boom brake fitted, but you cant stabilize the boom like you can with a vang/preventer in light wind. We then run the vang tackle to the boom brake's mounting on either side deck when needed. Both options seem best to me.

Oh, and when we are going downwind, the mains is coming down or third-reef and were moving via headsail. It's usually the rear quarter wave that knocks our butt sideways and the headsail help us keep the stern into the wind.

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Old 12-05-2014, 17:44   #134
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Call for Help/ This American Life

I took the opportunity to listen to the radio show , not the transcript. I think eric and Charlotte have a very convincing and altogether more understandable account of their decision processes

eric did mention as a result of the knockdown ( charlottes term ) the interviewer used the term broach, that as far as he could tell he had breeches in the starboard. Hull and " leaks" from the hull deck joint. Whether this was from rail damage or something else was never determined. There was no mention in that interview of boom damage.

He makes it clear that while the boat might have remained seaworthy, the failure of various on board systems, combined with the continued illness of their child, convinced him to press the button. Again, no one but no one can fault his logic or second guess his decision.

I noticed in the interview charlotte mentioned eric was on the side deck when the knockdown occurred, whereas eric has said he as in the companionway. That may have just been a mis communication.

There is no doubt that the damage and water ingress in what is " supposed" to be a rugged boat is very worrying. The knockdown didn't seem overly violent.

The interviewer mentions a manual bilge pump , akin to something like the whale Gusher. Eric in this thread mentions electronic bilge pumps. So that may have caused sone confusion

All in all, leaving aside the perplexing damage, I find it both a credible account and a very reasonable set of decisions.

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Old 12-05-2014, 17:44   #135
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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The logical question is.... What is the proper damage control for a partial deck-hull joint failure? What should a reasonably well outfitted vessel have on-board to address this?
Been thinking about this since RH's post on the topic...I think I would take a bit of old rope and cut it into short lengths and unweave and untwist the strands and fibers and mash them up in polysulfide or dolfinite into a holy mess...and then push it into the crack with a hacksaw blade. Perhaps the same thing could be done with rigging tape and caulk. Could carve a thin wedge and use it and a mallet to pound the mess into the crack if needed to get it tight.

Or do the same with waxed marlin.

Or make multiple narrow wedges and rap them into the crack side by side being careful not to open it any further.

Wrap a piece of Sunbrella or sail over the toe rail. Predrill holes as needed and use pan head screws to hold it in place...stretching it tight and putting screws at close intervals.

Or a combination of all these.

All things I carry on board.

Any other ideas?
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