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Old 18-05-2014, 20:20   #571
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pirate Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

I've only suffered one knock down... where the boat went over so far the main spilled water as we came back up.. that was on a broad reach in a F7 on a BR 54.. an extra large cross wave caught the stern just right as we lifted and we accelerated round to port and laid over.. she came straight back up and we went back on course and I rolled in more jib to slow us back to 6kts.. it worked.. the rest of the night we rode the seas just fine..
I've come close to broaching a few times.. running downwind under genoa and reefed main with a big following sea.. every now and then you'll have a wave breaking as it hits your stern and passes under leaving the rudder either in thin air.. or aerated water with minimum grip.. that's when the boat can pivot on its fin keel and if it gets round far enough before you regain steerage your liable to go beam on and roll..
When it gets to that stage its put the AP on standby and take the helm.. or.. if solo heave to and wait for things to settle a bit.
If they were suffering repeated knockdowns it sounds more like they were beam on to the seas.. or.. he could not release the preventer he had rigged... personally.. from the brief description I'd have dropped the main.. furled the jib to 50% and run before the wind at a slower speed.. anything to reduce the beating up the boat seems to have been taking.. the AP would handle the conditions described adequately on the right setting.
Yes.. I know it would not have altered the babies condition.. just talking the tactics for the better scenario.. a happy burping baby.
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Old 18-05-2014, 20:37   #572
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Is anyone else here curious about smackdaddy's putative boat? and his agenda here?
1989 Hunter 40, there are several threads about it on Sailnet.
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Old 18-05-2014, 20:44   #573
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Tom,
When I read Mark's comments, I understand them pretty plainly. The idea of passagemaking is Making it first and foremost. Speed, IMO, is pretty far back on what you need to concentrate on. For years I've read here that catamaran speed helps you sail out of gales. No, not really. If the gale is 600 miles across your not getting out of it.

If your pushing a catamaran to the point where you are constantly surfing, your going to fast. Cat's pitchpole because they hit the trough, bury their bows, and the wave forces them over. I would imagine it happens in seconds and absolutely nothing you do will prevent it once the combination starts. Which is the whole point of this tread. It's not one thing, but combinations of events that usually cause accidents like RH.

Something Boatman brought up and which I've observed on passage is that stuff breaks (a lot) and S*%T happens. What is amazing is how long sailors will go with the problem before attempting to repair it. If you go back to most of these boat losses you find that one thing happens and the crew says, "It's ok, we can deal with it later". Then another and another happens until they are overwhelmed.

We caught a fish net in our prop Midatlantic. My crew didn't see the need to get it cleared or even how to do it. If I hadn't insisted we get if off, really I think we could have lost the boat a few days later. What I don't understand with crew is What the heck are you doing anyway? Sitting in the helm chair or reading a book? Do something for heavens sake.
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Old 18-05-2014, 21:55   #574
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Was meant to read "cruising to a margarita with OUR wives"



Ipads
Yeah... I like the original quote better.
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Old 18-05-2014, 22:08   #575
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Tom,
When I read Mark's comments, I understand them pretty plainly. The idea of passagemaking is Making it first and foremost. Speed, IMO, is pretty far back on what you need to concentrate on. For years I've read here that catamaran speed helps you sail out of gales. No, not really. If the gale is 600 miles across your not getting out of it.

If your pushing a catamaran to the point where you are constantly surfing, your going to fast. Cat's pitchpole because they hit the trough, bury their bows, and the wave forces them over. I would imagine it happens in seconds and absolutely nothing you do will prevent it once the combination starts. Which is the whole point of this tread. It's not one thing, but combinations of events that usually cause accidents like RH.


SNIP
Sorry if I left the impression that I constantly surf. What I was trying to communicate is that once waves reach a certain height all boats surf for short periods of time down the face of waves, kinda stall out in the trough, and then slow down even more as they go up the face of a wave. Once the get back on top of the wave (usually as the wave overtakes the boat) the boat will start surfing down the face of a wave again. A skillful helmsman can maximize the amount of time the boat surfs down the face of the wave and more importantly minimize the chance of broaching, pitch poling, and far more common gybing. Even more common is for a boat, especially a reasonably fast cat, to speed up and cause the sail to lose it's shape or even luff. This is something that even happens to monohulls in light winds and moderate waves.

This is vid may better explain what I am talking about in terms of surfing. This cat does not seem to be going too fast to me. It seems very save and very comfortable. YMMV

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Old 18-05-2014, 23:16   #576
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

That was a great video and certainly brings out the best attributes of a big cat on a broad reach

One point he made about acceleration was that a heavier displacement on a big cat made for a more comfortable passage when surfing.
I think the same holds true for a comparable 80ft mono with even heavier displacement
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Old 19-05-2014, 00:50   #577
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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That was a great video and certainly brings out the best attributes of a big cat on a broad reach

One point he made about acceleration was that a heavier displacement on a big cat made for a more comfortable passage when surfing.
I think the same holds true for a comparable 80ft mono with even heavier displacement
This reminds me of the story of the three bears. Just as porridge can be too hot, too cold, or just right boats can be too light, too heavy, or just right.
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Old 19-05-2014, 05:06   #578
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Of course, I asked it as a loaded question based on the transcripts from "this American life"



Ira Glass
Now, to get broached by itself is not such a big deal. Eric says lots of boats get broached.

Eric Kaufman
Yeah. I mean, you want to minimize it as much as you possibly can. And you probably did something wrong, or you could have been more active on the helm, or something like that. But it's not like, oh, my gosh, this is horrible. No boat has ever experienced this. That's not the case. It's sailing across an ocean. It's what it is. If you don't want to take hits like that, don't go across an ocean.
Oh, I think I intended to discuss this in my oost and forgot... And it was getting long anyways

Thats not what I call broaching. What do you call it? Its a "knock down", or "knocked on ones beam ends", "fall off a wave", A small one "pushed about"?
When a wave hits you and chucks you on your side, or slews you around. Or as Phil pointed out, it can cause a broach if it lifts the rudder, or white water is under the rudder so it cavitates and the boat comes up to wind.

When the waves are big enough and breaking dangerously enough for the boat to be knocked down then one must do one of three basic things: de-power the boat, change the angle of the boats attack to the waves, heave to, or run off.
You just can't keep going because a knock down can break the brandy balloons below!

Even the milder ones where I get pushed about by a wave I wonder at the exponential increase in pressure on the rudder.

Mark
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Old 19-05-2014, 05:51   #579
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Naah.. he's taking a break while Weavis and I keep the rest amused... he offered us $10/post to keep you lot occupied..
Quote:
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Boy did you get scammed he offered me $US20 a post.

Obviously it is a pay-per-hull plan.

Now, whether it is a reward, or a compensation...
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Old 19-05-2014, 06:22   #580
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Oh, I think I intended to discuss this in my oost and forgot... And it was getting long anyways

Thats not what I call broaching. What do you call it? Its a "knock down", or "knocked on ones beam ends", "fall off a wave", A small one "pushed about"?
When a wave hits you and chucks you on your side, or slews you around. Or as Phil pointed out, it can cause a broach if it lifts the rudder, or white water is under the rudder so it cavitates and the boat comes up to wind.

When the waves are big enough and breaking dangerously enough for the boat to be knocked down then one must do one of three basic things: de-power the boat, change the angle of the boats attack to the waves, heave to, or run off.
You just can't keep going because a knock down can break the brandy balloons below!

Even the milder ones where I get pushed about by a wave I wonder at the exponential increase in pressure on the rudder.

Mark
Whatever it's called I would not call it "fun".
Incredible broach on a sailing boat - YouTube
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Old 19-05-2014, 06:27   #581
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Boy did you get scammed he offered me $US20 a post.
oh thats it!
Brits work cheap.........
I see how it works.
Bill is in the mail............... no checks
just enclose cash
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Old 19-05-2014, 09:35   #582
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Oh, I think I intended to discuss this in my oost and forgot... And it was getting long anyways

Thats not what I call broaching.

SNIP
There are way too many forces even when a boat is kinda moving along in a straight line to make it easy to come up with a simple definition of lots of common sailing terms.

Surfers often spend time observing waves to better understand them. An off shore wind will make waves steeper, a good thing for surfers, but the face of a wave is dynamic. Sailors spend time trying to figure out when the wind will head or lift them. But the wind can also head or lift waves.

What a sailor would call broaching a surfer might well call a wipe out. One of the most common causes of a surfer wiping out is the surfer is not able to keep their balance. I suspect when a sail boat broaches to some extent the forces from the wind on the sail change in a manner similar to a surfer losing his balance and and at least contributes to a broach.
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Old 19-05-2014, 10:30   #583
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Sorry if I left the impression that I constantly surf. What I was trying to communicate is that once waves reach a certain height all boats surf for short periods of time down the face of waves, kinda stall out in the trough, and then slow down even more as they go up the face of a wave. Once the get back on top of the wave (usually as the wave overtakes the boat) the boat will start surfing down the face of a wave again. A skillful helmsman can maximize the amount of time the boat surfs down the face of the wave and more importantly minimize the chance of broaching, pitch poling, and far more common gybing. Even more common is for a boat, especially a reasonably fast cat, to speed up and cause the sail to lose it's shape or even luff. This is something that even happens to monohulls in light winds and moderate waves.

This is vid may better explain what I am talking about in terms of surfing. This cat does not seem to be going too fast to me. It seems very save and very comfortable. YMMV

Tom,
I've seen that video before. Nice sized swells but the wind isn't that strong. I'm wondering, have you actually gone on weeks long passages? It's unlikely that you will actually have a "helmsman". Ray Marine usually steers mine, does a hell of a job.

Just to clear something up though. Even in that video, the boat is never surfing down a wave - ever. At no time does the boat go faster, or even the same speed, as the wave. So you do feel acceleration when the wave crest is at your stern, but it continues under you and you actually fall off the back side. Also, concerning gybing, cat sailors really shouldn't ever be in a position to accidently gybe. Our VMG is much better sailing on a broad reach compared to running.
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Old 20-05-2014, 16:20   #584
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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...Also, concerning gybing, cat sailors really shouldn't ever be in a position to accidently gybe. Our VMG is much better sailing on a broad reach compared to running.
I've wondered about this. At low wind speeds, this is true of both mono and multi-hulls. In fact, it has little to do with how many hulls and more to do with how fast a boat is, I think. A boat that is fast enough to create significant apparent wind needs to stay away from going DDW. An Open 60 monohull basically close reaches most of the time, even when going downwind.

Once a monohull hits hull speed, though, they should be going DDW (or as close to it as comfortably possible given rolling and risk of gybes) to get the best VMG. Bearing off doesn't help.

A cat doesn't have a hull speed in theory, but I imagine that in 40 knots of wind your VMG isn't any better at 150 degrees than it is at 180? So is there a practical max speed for most cruising cats? Will a Lagoon really go faster broad reaching than DDW in heavy weather?
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Old 20-05-2014, 19:41   #585
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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SNIP

Just to clear something up though. Even in that video, the boat is never surfing down a wave - ever. At no time does the boat go faster, or even the same speed, as the wave. So you do feel acceleration when the wave crest is at your stern, but it continues under you and you actually fall off the back side. Also, concerning gybing, cat sailors really shouldn't ever be in a position to accidently gybe. Our VMG is much better sailing on a broad reach compared to running.
We may have to agree to disagree about the definition of surfing. If a wave comes up behind a boat and causes the boat to accelerate I define that as surfing. You seem to have a different definition. Are you claiming surfing occurs only when a boat is going the same speed as a wave, if so when a boat is falling down the face of a wave faster or slower than the wave what do you call that?
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