Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Spleen

How common would you say a broach is, especially on an ocean passage? And is it "no big deal"? If you take on ocean passages, should you expect broaches?

Did we work out what we mean by 'broach'?
We should never, as cruisers, be in a position to broach from sail action alone.

From Wikipedia

A sailboat broaches when its heading suddenly changes towards the wind due to wind/sail interactions for which the rudder cannot compensate. This causes the boat to enter a Death roll, rolling dangerously and if not controlled may lead to a capsize and turning turtle. This happens when the aerodynamic force on the rig greatly exceeds the hydrodynamic force on the hull, due to a sudden increase in wind strength or turbulent sea conditions. In larger boats broaching can lay the mast horizontal, putting both rig and crew at risk. It can be particularly dangerous when racing other boats at close quarters.

If you keep the boat below hull speed you are very unlikely to broach on a well found boat with proper rudder. Especially important when reaching with a spinnaker and maybe sufing waves. On Auto Pilot you cant feel how much more rudder you have to keep it out of the wind on gusts, or waves pushing your bum.

Last time I posted some reply about keeping your speed down on long passages to hull speed a whole bunch of people then started going on about them doing 14 knots yada yada... Of course they were only doing 14 down one lucky massive surfing wave otherwise they would be sailing 340nms per day. But what they are doing is running a boat physics says can do 8 knots and the manufactures design a rudder for 10 knots down a wave at 14, obviously OUT of control!

A great ocean is not to place to try tricks you'd use on a saturday afternoon race! We are not doing the Vinderloo round the world race with 20 crew either! We are cruising to a margarita with out wives!!

So use the relaxed concept and reef at hull speed.



Mark
PS I like the Vinderloo gag

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

SNIP

A great ocean is not to place to try tricks you'd use on a saturday afternoon race! We are not doing the Vinderloo round the world race with 20 crew either! We are cruising to a margarita with out wives!!

So use the relaxed concept and reef at hull speed.

SNIP

A couple of weeks ago I was day sailing. Put about thirty miles on the odometer. Was maybe eight/ten miles past the reef when I hit the grass line. Maybe 12-15 knots and I headed up and put two reefs in the main and started my heaving to drill. I think it is quite worthwhile to heave to in the grass line and try and stay in the grass line as long as possible, especially if you have a spinner and are trying to catch a fish. I was able to stay in the grass line long enough that a power boat trolling the grass line had to change course to stay safely away from me.

Not what I would call a weekend race but one of the reasons I do things like this is so the first time I heave to is not in fifty knots and a heavy sea way in the Gulf Stream. Every time you go out in a boat you should be learning more about your boat.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

SNIP

If you keep the boat below hull speed you are very unlikely to broach on a well found boat with proper rudder. Especially important when reaching with a spinnaker and maybe sufing waves. On Auto Pilot you cant feel how much more rudder you have to keep it out of the wind on gusts, or waves pushing your bum.


SNIP

Maybe not in RH's case but how do you determine the hull speed of a multihull. Also have to wonder about how advisable it is to fly a spinnaker in conditions where you will be surfing.

I spend a lot of time day sailing between the reef and the Gulf Stream often in 15-20 knots of wind and waves big enough to surf on. I think it is very important to get a good feel for how your boat surfs. How your boat balances with a working jib and one reef, or two reefs when surfing. The more time you spend doing things like this in under twenty knots and close to help the better shape you will be in when you need to do it in worse conditions far from help.

Surfing is a skill than can be learned just like other sailing skills.

Surf's up dude.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

We are cruising to a margarita with out wives!!

Was meant to read "cruising to a margarita with OUR wives"



Ipads

[weavis]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Maybe not in RH's case but how do you determine the hull speed of a multihull. Also have to wonder about how advisable it is to fly a spinnaker in conditions where you will be surfing.

I spend a lot of time day sailing between the reef and the Gulf Stream often in 15-20 knots of wind and waves big enough to surf on. I think it is very important to get a good feel for how your boat surfs. How your boat balances with a working jib and one reef, or two reefs when surfing. The more time you spend doing things like this in under twenty knots and close to help the better shape you will be in when you need to do it in worse conditions far from help.

Surfing is a skill than can be learned just like other sailing skills.

Surf's up dude.

Tom, Does the Seawind have daggerboards?

(EDIT)Never mind..... I was getting it mixed up with another Cat.... Sorry..

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

This was in response to someone saying accidents do not often happen.
...

No, it was in response to someone who said that accidents that result in the loss of a boat or a fatality are rare. Versus the number of boats on passage, that is a fact. That's one reason they are so interesting to analyze and to learn from.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Paul L

No, it was in response to someone who said that accidents that result in the loss of a boat or a fatality are rare. Versus the number of boats on passage, that is a fact. That's one reason they are so interesting to analyze and to learn from.

If the truth be known I have no idea how many boats are on a passage or what portion of boats on passage suffer serious issues. It is hard for me to believe nine out of ten boats on a passage have serious problems; but I might be wrong.

I also wonder about what I will call the condition of boats going out on a passage. I tend to do something like replace all the running rigging before going to the Bahamas and do some type of standing rigging check. Also change the fluids in the motors and check the other systems. My boat has no structural wood the hull seems sound.

Anyone have suggestions or want to share their personal experience with what they do before heading out on a passage to reduce the possibility of suffering damage to the boat.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Maybe I just don't understand the language. Something breaks on almost all passages, often serious things and multiple things. But the number of boats lost or lives lost is very small versus the number craft out there. Its just a fact. I can't see how you could take what I said as 'Macho'. Must be a language thing again.

Yup... definitely a language thing... nothing to do with your masculinity..
'We're so Macho' was about the guys who deal with all kind of crap on a trip then.. sitting in a bar the other side say.. "Yeah.. the trip was not to bad.. no big deal.."
Then again.. maybe its more a Brit thing..

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Some good observations. Especially the bit about having extra water. You really know your stuff....

Just enough to get me to 65... will let you know if its enough when I hit 66.. then 67..
Fact is.. many on here can sail rings round me.. but then a seaman is different from you guys.. we work at your play.. different approach and mind set..

And to the guy with the flying cap..
I did not say 9 out of 10 have serious problems..
I said they suffer gear failure of one kind or the other.. if your gonna attempt to quote me.. get it right..
Some however may be potentially serious if ignored or put off..
Personal experience here.. on my 1st non-stop solo from SMX to the UK when I was about 400miles NNW of the Azores a lower shroud popped in the middle off the night..
I always do crossings with main reefed right down at night.. so I flipped her on the opposite tack and hove to.. next morning I dug out all my spare blocks and pulled out the spinnaker halyard.. rigged up a loop going over and under the port spreader where it meets the mast.. kinda figure of 8 with the loop coming round either side of the mast.. fitted a double block there and another at the bottle screw and ran the line through and back to the port winch.. tensioned it up and tied off.. it served for the next 1200 miles to the UK.. apart from occasional taking up of the stretch..
I could have put it of till the sea was calmer.. lucky I did not as there was a strong N'ly 36hrs after it was done.. that was one of the times I broke some ribs.. lost my grip up there.. swung out and slammed back into the mast as she pitched.. next time I went up at sea I ran a loop round to lock me in..
Painful lessons are the soonest learnt...

[Prairie Chicken]

A favourite aviation quote seems to apply here: Learn from the mistakes of others; you can't live long enough to make them all yourself.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by boatman61

SNIP

And to the guy with the flying cap..
I did not say 9 out of 10 have serious problems..
I said they suffer gear failure of one kind or the other.. if your gonna attempt to quote me.. get it right..
SNIP

England and America are two countries separated by a common language according to George Bernard Shaw.
Most folks I know would agree losing a mast or breaking a rib is a serious problem. Maybe it is time for you to post what you consider a serious problem.

[JPA Cate]

Tomfl,

The incident at sea where you have to go aloft to do something is both a big deal and not a big deal, which is weird, but. Sometimes one has a situation that MUST be dealt with, NOW, and at that moment it is a big deal. In Boaties example above, had he lost the mast, it would have been a real p*sser, instead of a damned uncomfortable event with an excellent outcome. Action HAD to be very quick. By the time you're in port, you're down to it no longer being a big deal, being pleased with yourself and waiting for it to quit hurting when you want to laugh. It is all a process. And it probably took as long as the ribs hurt for all the other bruises to go away, because that, too, is part of the price you pay when you go aloft at sea in a mono. I've no experiences with it in a cat, and only second hand myself, 'cause it was Jim who went aloft to replace our broken baby stay when that happened.*

Add British understatement, a skill, which if learned, will earn you a few delighted smiles in some environments.

*The wire that broke was the only one not replaced when we re-rigged. It looked perfect , but had corroded on the inside. Another lesson.
Ann

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Tomfl,

The incident at sea where you have to go aloft to do something is both a big deal and not a big deal, which is weird, but.

SNIP

Well I am glad we got that cleared up.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by tomfl

England and America are two countries separated by a common language according to George Bernard Shaw.
Most folks I know would agree losing a mast or breaking a rib is a serious problem. Maybe it is time for you to post what you consider a serious problem.

A hull to hull split under the bridge deck in a 9m Catalac 12 miles S of Cape Trafalgar with a 50kt E'ly against tide.. steep breaking sea's.. over one then stop dead as the next breaks over you.. repeat.. water gushing in in spurts.. the crew sticking their head out and waving one of the manual bilge pumps that had ripped of the rotten ply bulkhead..
Having to steer with the engines as the rudders could not cope... and the engines struggled..
Hate getting in dodgy situations with crew aboard..
That's when I called out the Barbette Lifeboat to stand by in case we sank before reaching safe waters.. and to guide us through the 4 sets of Tuna nets that are there.. we hit one.. but luckily lifted over on a wave before snagging..
I'm a lucky SOB...

[Kenomac]

I've been absent from this discussion for over a week, 'looks like no detailed answers provided by Eric despite many questions... no surprise to me. And now he disappears once again when the questions get specific....

Interesting.