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Old 18-05-2014, 07:58   #526
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
Really don't thank me. I don't get it at all but please don't try to educate me anymore. And being a ringleader then trying to deny it? Come on, you can't post 20 times in a row about this and then say "Well, I didn't start it".
I think I spent a few posts refuting the metaphysical aspects.
Whatever.
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Old 18-05-2014, 08:17   #527
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pirate Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Totally disagree on that 'accidents are not rare'. For an individual or couple doing passages, accidents are rare. Passage making is not some high likelihood disaster. Failed passages with loss of the boat or life do occur. You hear about them on the interweb. That doesn't make them common for a passage maker. It makes them news.
Rubbish.. I can think of at least 3 boats that have lost their mast due to rig failure.. a Spanish friend got rolled and dismasted on his way to the Canaries.. MarkJ came close when his forestay went on his way to the Carib..
Folk break bones.. I've broken ribs at sea a few times.. most deal with the situation and jury rig a mast, whatever and struggle on.. these are the many you never hear about.. unless they post it in a forum...
Have not had a delivery yet that has not experienced gear failure of one type or another.. and that includes new.. that's one of the reasons I started posting my Oz trip.. someone wanted to know what a delivery was like.. and I underplayed a lot..
The one's that you do hear about are the ones who call for rescue and abandon ship.. that's NEWS.. and provable..
Don't make the misconception that everythings a piece of cake.. 9 out of 10 boats will have something fail/go wrong on a passage..
and 8 of those 9 will say.. "Piece of cake mate.. had worse times trying to get into my home port"...
We're so Macho...
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Old 18-05-2014, 08:18   #528
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Phil,
I usually agree with 'ya mate....(and in this thread I DO agree with almost everything you wrote..)


And, in this statement (whether it was the USCG running things out-at-sea for this particular rescue, or the US Navy), I suspect you are correct here....for this specific instance...
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Did Eric have the option to stay on board if things were as bad as suggested.. (regardless of what he actually chose to do).. or even if they were not..??
From my understanding of past CG rescues and the debates on here that followed them.. I think not
But, if the vessel was seaworthy and the remaining crew was capable, this is not USCG policy (unless things have changed in the past week)....






Here, we disagree.....
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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
... many also have had to call in help for sick crew and.. from what I can make out with the USCG its a policy of 'One off.. All off'..
Perhaps you are allowing the stories on-line to serve as "proof", but this is not daily SOP for the USCG around here....and not their policy...

They regularly rescue/remove sick or injured individuals from vessels (small private yachts, sail and power....sportfishing boats....commercial fishing boats....and even occasionally cruise ships and large merchant vessels...)
These scenarios play out in the coastal waters and near offshore waters (out a couple hundred miles), along the US East Coast regularly....and along the SE coast of Florida, it is a weekly and almost daily occurrence...

Further, when merchant ships at sea are tasked to rescue / remove sick or injured crew from another vessel, if that vessel's master wishes to continue-on and that vessel (and remaining crew) are deemed to be seaworthy / capable (by USCG if a US-flagged vessel), then the vessel, master, and remaining crew can continue-on....(this scenario is played out between US and Bermuda, a few times each year....)



Again, in the Rebel Heart situation...yes, the damage to the vessel and the capability of the one remaining crew to single-hand another 2000 miles(?), were certainly a major factor in any determination as to whether he'd be allowed to stay on-board or not....but in more "typical" medical evacuations (if there is anything that can be considered "typical"), as long as it were seaworthy and the crew capable, the vessel would be allowed to continue on....





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Old 18-05-2014, 08:21   #529
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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The 'accidents' are not rare.. nor the poor state (in hindsight) of the vessel... many broach and recover.. many have failure of systems and/or boat integrity... many are unsafe in the eye's of others... many also have had to call in help for sick crew and.. from what I can make out with the USCG its a policy of 'One off.. All off'..
Did Eric have the option to stay on board if things were as bad as suggested.. (regardless of what he actually chose to do).. or even if they were not..??
From my understanding of past CG rescues and the debates on here that followed them.. I think not
The only rare thing about this event is that there was a young child considered to be at risk of dying..
I doubt anyone here thinks Eric made the wrong call.. if the child was in danger he did good..
I don't even think he did bad taking the kids..
I know folk who've given birth on board.. sailed the world as they raised their kids and only slowing down as they reached school age and felt an education amongst peers was a good idea.
My interest lies in his seamanship and choices made on route selection etc.. not so much as to criticise.. but as to hear/suggest better options... such as Jim Cate's saying a departure from further N is better for steadier winds and reaching a more favourable point to cross the Equator..
These are the things us 'Voyeurs' can learn from.. or assist those looking to learn..
Simple things like.. in theory an ocean voyage should only take 20 days.. carry food and water for forty.. and don't trust what you put in your tanks.. else you'll end up calling up a Container Ship for drinking water.... OOPPPPSSSSSSSSSSS

Some good observations. Especially the bit about having extra water. You really know your stuff....
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Old 18-05-2014, 08:29   #530
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pirate Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Sorry mate.. I stand corrected..
In mitigation I'm a Brit on an American (90%) Forum so my knowledge/impression comes from what's posted on here by your countrymen.. and comments made in the 4 years I've been a member.. and the posts covering rescue in and near US waters in that time...
I do know that over here they will come out and stand by till the last moment if need be while one try's to make it in.. or as in the Azores they will send out the Lifeboat even when assistance is not requested but a boat has had a problem.. as in my case a few weeks ago..
See... one can learn things from this event..
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Old 18-05-2014, 08:35   #531
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
I think I spent a few posts refuting the metaphysical aspects.
Whatever.
Nothing a little introspection couldn't cure.
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Old 18-05-2014, 08:38   #532
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
Nothing a little introspection couldn't cure.
lolol
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Old 18-05-2014, 08:43   #533
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Rubbish.. I can think of at least 3 boats that have lost their mast due to rig failure.. a Spanish friend got rolled and dismasted on his way to the Canaries.. MarkJ came close when his forestay went on his way to the Carib..
Folk break bones.. I've broken ribs at sea a few times.. most deal with the situation and jury rig a mast, whatever and struggle on.. these are the many you never hear about.. unless they post it in a forum...
Have not had a delivery yet that has not experienced gear failure of one type or another.. and that includes new.. that's one of the reasons I started posting my Oz trip.. someone wanted to know what a delivery was like.. and I underplayed a lot..
The one's that you do hear about are the ones who call for rescue and abandon ship.. that's NEWS.. and provable..
Don't make the misconception that everythings a piece of cake.. 9 out of 10 boats will have something fail/go wrong on a passage..
and 8 of those 9 will say.. "Piece of cake mate.. had worse times trying to get into my home port"...
We're so Macho...
Maybe I just don't understand the language. Something breaks on almost all passages, often serious things and multiple things. But the number of boats lost or lives lost is very small versus the number craft out there. Its just a fact. I can't see how you could take what I said as 'Macho'. Must be a language thing again.
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Old 18-05-2014, 08:48   #534
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

I don't know what official USCG policy is for rescue, but I do know what happened with Satori:

S/V SATORI - The Perfect Storm: The whole story

Quote:
Within a couple of hours a helicopter flew over and raised them on the radio indicating that the Tamaroa, a Coast vessel, was going to try and contact them on the VHF. When the Tamaroa arrived and called the Satori Ray again reported that the boat was O.K., that he wanted to stay, but that the crew wanted to get off. The Captain of Tamaroa radioed back and told Ray that he had specific orders from Headquarters in Boston to remove everyone from the boat. Ray knew that if he refused the order to abandon ship he could loose his captain's license and Satori's Coast Guard documentation. His boat could then be prohibited from entering American ports.
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Old 18-05-2014, 08:52   #535
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Maybe I just don't understand the language. Something breaks on almost all passages, often serious things and multiple things. But the number of boats lost or lives lost is very small versus the number craft out there. Its just a fact. I can't see how you could take what I said as 'Macho'. Must be a language thing again.
He didnt say that Paul.

it was a phrase used to describe all the above.

Like someone telling of all the things that go wrong and how the problems were overcome.. and then saying.. " We are so Macho!" in a funny way.

Like when a kid asks you how to fix something and it works.. and then they ask how you knew..... and you say "Coz daddy is so smart!"

It must be a language thing.......
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Old 18-05-2014, 09:23   #536
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Rubbish.. I can think of at least 3 boats that have lost their mast due to rig failure.. a Spanish friend got rolled and dismasted on his way to the Canaries.. MarkJ came close when his forestay went on his way to the Carib..
Folk break bones.. I've broken ribs at sea a few times.. most deal with the situation and jury rig a mast, whatever and struggle on.. these are the many you never hear about.. unless they post it in a forum...
Have not had a delivery yet that has not experienced gear failure of one type or another.. and that includes new.. that's one of the reasons I started posting my Oz trip.. someone wanted to know what a delivery was like.. and I underplayed a lot..
The one's that you do hear about are the ones who call for rescue and abandon ship.. that's NEWS.. and provable..
Don't make the misconception that everythings a piece of cake.. 9 out of 10 boats will have something fail/go wrong on a passage..
and 8 of those 9 will say.. "Piece of cake mate.. had worse times trying to get into my home port"...
We're so Macho...


How common would you say a broach is, especially on an ocean passage? And is it "no big deal"? If you take on ocean passages, should you expect broaches?
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Old 18-05-2014, 09:40   #537
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

MetaPhysics

1) the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.
2) abstract theory or talk with no basis in reality.

From the Greek: ta meta ta phusika
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Old 18-05-2014, 10:59   #538
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Priceless!
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Old 18-05-2014, 11:12   #539
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Old 18-05-2014, 11:36   #540
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Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Rubbish.. I can think of at least 3 boats that have lost their mast due to rig failure.. a Spanish friend got rolled and dismasted on his way to the Canaries.. MarkJ came close when his forestay went on his way to the Carib..
This was in response to someone saying accidents do not often happen.

Yes, I snapped me forestay in the middle of the Atlantic and could have easily lost my stick.

Thats why I do take these threads seriously and would prefer the forum peanuts to play in another forum or outside in the kindy sand pit.

I was coming from the Canaries to St Martin as the last leg of my circumnavigation. i did a rig check in the Canaries and had the intention to rerig in St Martin as the rigging was original.

400nm before St Martin in about 30 knots on a beam reach I had two reefs in the main and was just wondering if I should put another roll in the genoa when Neptune answered my question.

The Auto Pilot was on and I headed dead downwind.

The genoa was still held up by its halyard and I was able to gently furl it.

Then I thought it would be a good moment to stop and think. Which I thought was a good idea because I was just about to lower the mainsail. Then I thought that theres not much holding the mast up, and the compression of the halyard would be adding a bit, and I didnt have 400 NMs of fuel anyway.

I ran my spinnaker pole topping lift to the bow, obviously.

Keeping a dead downwind course I was heading towards Antigua also 400nms

So things were quite OK, I could sail to Antigua, fill up, and motor to st Martin. As it turned out over the next few days the wind moderated and got a bit more south in it so I was able to sail 300 miles and motored the last 100.

Reasons why I was lucky:
Extremely lucky I could furl the genoa.
Wind was only 30 knots anyway. Then it moderated in the next few days.
I could head downwind and still be getting somewhere to fix the boat.
I stopped and thought about my problem before I screwed the fixing of it
I didnt try to drop the genoa, nor the main.

When the rigger showed me where the forestay had broken the break was more than 1 cm inside the swaged fitting at the mast head. SO theres no way I could ever have spotted a problem in any check. And it was a problem, at least 4 of the broken strands had rust on the cut surface of the wire, that means it had been weak for some time.... So very lucky.


That, my friends, is why I read and examine these threads... Because we never know what our problem is going to be so we can only learn from other peoples situations. Thats why I would never sail with the peanuts who say examining this thread is irrelevant (and then do 50 off topic posts) because they have no understanding about their lack of predicability of their own boat, the weather or anything that may help them in an, all too frequent, problem.



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