Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 16-05-2014, 11:08   #436
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
Excellent post, Weavis. This is the heart of the matter.
Brilliant post. Meta-thinking
__________________

__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 11:56   #437
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 4,565
re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
...
9 out 0f 10 mishaps happen for personality traits. Impatience, anger, sadness, disappointment, fear, arrogance, tiredness, lack of knowledge etc.
...
This seems to be devolving into some meta-physical philosophy debate. I don't know where this 9 out of 10 statistic came from. Crew fatigue is a major component of many accidents at sea, if not most. But tiredness isn't a personality trait.
RH took more risks than most that attempt this passage. They ended up on the bad side of those risks. Whether it is 1 in 10 or 1 in a 1,000, when you end up on the 1 side of the equation it isn't good. 1. Taking a child so young was a significant risk. 2. Taking crew that did not have passage experience was a risk. 3. Having the only crew majorly engaged in caring for two young children was a risk. Many Pacific passage makers accept risk #2 and a fair number risk #3. Only few do risk #1. RH has stated that the boat condition had little effect on the final decisions. I mostly accept that as reasonable, although things may have been different if more reliable communications had stayed in place. Since they would have been communicating with stateside medical, I suspect the typically overly cautious medical personnel would have continued to encourage the evacuation, so the outcome may not have been any different.
__________________

__________________
Paul L
http://svjeorgia.blogspot.com
Paul L is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 12:11   #438
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,132
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
RH took more risks than most that attempt this passage.
Paul. I think you answered your own question.
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 12:30   #439
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Location: On the hard in the RV
Posts: 107
re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Someone (sorry, I can't remember who) brought up the point that this age group of RH's kids' ages is probably the best age to take kids on a passage (in THEORY) because this is the age at which they are most dependent and happy with family and family alone.

This was a good point and I give points for it.

HOWEVER, as a parent, the risk vs. benefit ratio for that idea vs. what could happen, to me, is outweighed in favor of the "too risky" (and as played out in reality), especially given the point that one/two crew had to deal with the kids as opposed to doing duties on deck.

(Insert smilie beating horse)

I personally barely feel comfortable with bringing small kids on the Robalo, even when it is a 20 minute "put put" around sheltered water for them to say they were on a boat. Too much can happen and I don't enjoy the continual watching of the kids and the unease it causes ME. I realize my boat has no cabin where their boat did. Theirs is a lifestyle and mine is a hobby.

This is not a judgement of them, merely stating my opinion that it is risky to bring that age of the baby on a long passage. I think about her rolling around the cabin and think about how many calories she was burning just existing for those 900 miles and I start to think about how toddlers don't have that much reserve to sustain that rate of calorie expenditure (and illness, which is why babies can get very sick very fast)..... Toddlers burn a lot of calories anyway but they sleep hard to restore themselves and the baby (Lira?) couldn't get solid sleep either...


Just seems like maybe they didn't think that far about this particular topic.... It is a good point for others to think about who are thinking about bringing small children on extended trips.
__________________
Lake Pontchartain in New Orleans is actually an estuary and connects to the Gulf of Mexico though both the Rigolets and Chef Passes http://mapcarta.com/21023206
Spleen is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 12:35   #440
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
This seems to be devolving into some meta-physical philosophy debate.
Weavis implied psychological in what he said. Nothing meta-physical about any of it. Mind and body are the same.
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 12:54   #441
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 992
This American Life - recent sailboat rescure

Last week on 'This American Life' NPR radio show Ira interviews Eric and Charlotte Kaufman.

A good interview.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
tuffr2 is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 13:07   #442
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Having stayed with this debate, despite myself. I would summarise that the sum total of the reasons were loss of confidence, worries about being prepared, worries about the stuctural integrity of the boat , worries about children , worries about ones partner. Any one ,never two might have been mitigated, but all together I'm not surprised eric hit the button.

I think most couples find ocean voyaging much harder then they foresee. The wishful longings for azure lagoons rapidly dissipates in a welter of sea sickness, worry, constant uncomfortableness, worries about the vessel etc. Many couples make it to the other side to then never sail again, sone radically change plans and a few lucky ones continue.

There are many lessons to be learned from RH. Each person will take away from it their own internal views, so in that regards all this debate may help someone on the future.

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 13:15   #443
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,440
re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Weavis implied psychological in what he said. Nothing meta-physical about any of it. Mind and body are the same.
Weavis also advocated introspection, which is metaphysical.
__________________
letsgetsailing3 is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 13:29   #444
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,132
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
Weavis also advocated introspection, which is metaphysical.
Introspection is the examination of one's own conscious thoughts and feelings.[1] In psychology the process of introspection relies exclusively on observation of one's mental state,

while in a spiritual context it may refer to the examination of one's soul. Introspection is closely related to human self-reflection and is contrasted with external observation.

So in this example, you have corrected Salty. Whilst you are HALF right factually- you are completely wrong in your statement.

Your statement negates the validity of your comment.

Perhaps you should examine why you felt the need to correct Salty or rather, perhaps you should ask yourself why you didnt check the facts first? That is introspection as I wrote it.
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 13:30   #445
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
Weavis also advocated introspection, which is metaphysical.
Nice try…

There is nothing in the mind that does not first come from the external world w/ our senses.
-- Aristotle.
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 13:38   #446
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

SaltyMonkey, I would strongly disagree with Aristotle on that point, I do have a great respect for the philosopher.
__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 13:42   #447
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,440
Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Nice try…

There is nothing in the mind that does not first come from the external world w/ our senses.
-- Aristotle.
The origin may be unimportant. It's the very nature of existence that some believe to be worthy of reflection...
__________________
letsgetsailing3 is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 13:45   #448
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,342
Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Boy... now we're really far afield.....
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 13:46   #449
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,132
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

lol and I was the one accused of being metaphysical.
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline  
Old 16-05-2014, 13:53   #450
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,132
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Its all good.

Nobody died.

We will all pay better attention to our seaskills and boat work skills.

We will continue to learn from better sailors than ourselves and we will work on those things we know get in the way of being a better student...

I have OpenCPN in front of me, Its getting better and better...When its where I think it should be I will send a donation

will be getting NimbleNavstick later in the year as a portable backup as recommended by Boatie and as used by him.

Ive tracked some of his voyages and ran them through weather charts etc to see WHY he changed course and where he plotted to go to.
Damned if he aint accurate!

I asked, he replied... "Nimble Navigator"
__________________

__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
cal, sail, sailboat

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:21.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.