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Old 16-05-2014, 07:45   #421
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
lol,not the first time i have sealed up deck leaks with canvas,wood strips and a few nails!

i did recieve a pm from eric thanking me for the offer,though unsure as to wether the base commander in san diego passed it on to eric at the time as an option.

the catamaran that we proposed to use to get there however made it in 16 days ,panama-nuka hiva averaging over 200 miles a day!



That's good! Glad to hear it.
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Old 16-05-2014, 08:00   #422
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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No doubt. Still with Eric's boat in Force 5 conditions it was no swim off the beach for the rescue crew. 18 to 24 MPH winds, 6 to 9 foot seas. I was thinking in those conditions if I untied my dingy and let it drift away from the boat say 100 feet and then jumped in the water in with a lifejacket and a pack of gear and attempted to catch up with the dingy and climb aboard. I doubt if I'd ever make it. Yet, that's the first step for these guys after they hit the water. Amazing!
Yes, the one experience we had (and nothing of the scale of the rescue obviously) was when we rented a cabin on a lake with a dock and the 14 foot John boat came untied as a windy thunderstorm was approaching and DH jumped in thinking he could swim (not a strong swimmer) to the retreating boat, hop in and bring it back. Well, of course you can imaging the lightening, winds, small whitecaps on this smallish lake (probably a reservoir) and it was clear the boat was outpacing DH by a lot. Thank goodness a neighbor saw all of this and in the lightening, got his boat, rescued DH and then brought him to our boat and towed it back.

This story reminds me of how we, who are happier on water than on land, are indebted to each other. We help before we are asked, we rescue our fellow boater when in trouble and we pass it on when we can after we have received the help. I think about times when we came upon beached marsh fishermen, stuck on a sand bar with one who had cut his foot badly on something, where it took a good two hours to try and get the boat undone when we had to give up and let the guys try the next day when the tide came in. I remember when, as noobs, we ran out of gas on Lake Pontchartrain in New Orleans (duh!!! Slaps forehead) and required a towing from a guy who clearly was trying to make a quick run for that last cast of the night and instead had to help us get back to the dock.

In that note, I dare say (suggest, ask) that Eric help us out by giving a meaningful thought process of everything in retrospect because of this debt we have to each other. In the circle of us helping others and others helping us, it seems wise to have an account of what could have been done differently, both for the sake of the ones who will follow the coconut run and for those who may need to divert to help another boater. I think it would be a form of Eric "paying it forward"...

Absolutely my experience and stories are on a significantly much smaller scale than those crossing oceans... But the points are the same....

My thoughts on this...
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Old 16-05-2014, 08:22   #423
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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@ the naysayers- you guys must be desk jockies. Anyone who has worked at-risk jobs understands the value of a good failure analysis. And that is exactly what 90% of the thread is.


For the rest of us another big lesson- be careful what you post. Posts do come back to bite ya!
Yes, good failure analysis... Exactly.

And on the second note about be careful what you post... Yesterday I was googling "sail boat + roll over" and some posts from CF came up. I was reading them and came across this post from years ago from Rebel Heart: Broaching and Rolling with Dismasting

"I broached once in San Diego harbor in my old Ericson 32. Totally freaked me out. Didn't lose the mast or roll over, but someone saw the keel come out of the water and my boom was wet. She recovered nicely. Rounded up into the wind, and slammed back upright again.

Man, that freaked me out big time."

Sometimes, I guess, the learning curve is steep....
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Old 16-05-2014, 08:35   #424
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

There is a huge difference between failure analysis and blame laying, judgement passing, or criticism thinly disguised as inquiries about what went wrong. Good failure analysis is essential to preventing a future recurrence of the same incident. I like the philosophy of "fix the problem, not the blame". I have a feeling that RH will never have that type of problem again.
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Old 16-05-2014, 08:37   #425
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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@ the naysayers- you guys must be desk jockies. Anyone who has worked at-risk jobs understands the value of a good failure analysis. And that is exactly what 90% of the thread is.
This isn't an airplane review with a limited commercial exposure. There are thousands of boats, each design different, each owner different, each situation different. You can list till your eyes pop out of your sockets, and think you have analyzed and learned something, but next round the dice will spin and something else will need to be listed, and you won't be any closer, any better from it. Its non-deterministic and non-linear.

You're missing the bigger meta-problem which you need to work on, where you can actually make a difference and stem this re-accurance. It takes training and discipline and its hard work but it can be done. This has not been addressed in this thread. This *might be addressed in your mentioned post risk situation but it hasn't been even brought up.

And btw, just a reminder that this was originally about the NPR program. And the bail still came down to the baby's health.
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Old 16-05-2014, 09:08   #426
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
There is a huge difference between failure analysis and blame laying, judgement passing, or criticism thinly disguised as inquiries about what went wrong. Good failure analysis is essential to preventing a future recurrence of the same incident. I like the philosophy of "fix the problem, not the blame". I have a feeling that RH will never have that type of problem again.
Im not sure I understand.
Can you tell me what the problem was?
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Old 16-05-2014, 09:29   #427
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Maybe I am reaching too far back. I wasn't referring to the most current posts. If I am out to lunch, I apologize. I have seen several statements of fact here that have been twisted and distorted in the interpretation and restated as fact. Hell I am probably totally out of line, wouldn't be the first time.
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Old 16-05-2014, 09:45   #428
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
Maybe I am reaching to far back. I wasn't referring to the most current posts. If I am out to lunch, I apologize. I have seen several statements of fact here that have been twisted and distorted in the interpretation and restated as fact. Hell I am probably totally out of line, wouldn't be the first time.
HI Cap

Its not even that I disagree with you. I think if a problem is known then a solution can be applied. I dont think for one second you are out of line. I do see though that no one moves on in their lives until they recognise, accept and change certain attitudes or behavior and learn what they didnt know before to prevent a situation from happening again for the same reasons.

In all this chat and static, are we refering to "Rebel Heart" (the boat that is no more), or are we looking for reasons why the boat is no more and the events from way back that led to the culmination of the voyage when circumstances collided?
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Old 16-05-2014, 09:47   #429
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

I dont think now there is much point in this debate, There remains considerable confusion as to exactly what happened to the boat ( as opposed to the other events). now its just


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Old 16-05-2014, 09:53   #430
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Don't like to but I agree with Dave.
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Old 16-05-2014, 09:53   #431
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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In all this chat and static, are we refering to "Rebel Heart" (the boat that is no more), or are we looking for reasons why the boat is no more and the events from way back that led to the culmination of the voyage when circumstances collided?
We are looking at the whys not the whats, and the whys go back much further and deeper than a ubiquitous list of physical bullets, and these have not been discussed.
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Old 16-05-2014, 09:57   #432
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

This is not an official enquiry. This is a voluntary discussion by the captain of the vessel that was abandoned open to all, and as such hard questions have been asked.

With it NOT being an official enquiry, absolutes do not have to assessed. There is no material evidence to examine. The boat has gone. There is recollection and notes made and a series of events recorded, which all came together in the known outcome.

I have read and re read this thread several times. I have discussed with experienced professional mariners the actions they would have taken in certain conditions, and they agreed independently on certain tactics and methodology.

I have 'some' boat building experience, but also asked professionals who are experts in their field what they thought. I found out my surmises were wrong…

One of my colleagues here gave a medical opinion regarding childrens illnesses and quoted percentages based on studies. It is not my place to agree or disagree, but merely to consider what I would do in making my choice and whether or not his comments would affect my choice.

I looked at the preparations made to make the boat ready for a world cruise. I looked at the captains sailing experience and I looked at the crew members who would be on this trip.

I am responsible for my life. Part of the natural survival instinct for man, is to evaluate situations that we voluntarily place ourselves in.

Even before ANY voyage begins, and I am crew, I ask myself some questions.
  • How much experience does a Captain have in handling boats?
  • How much experience does he have in undertaking the particular cruising that is being proposed.
  • What kind of personality is he or she.
  • Is there arrogance on display.
  • How much planning for the worst scenario has been undertaken?
And the big one........ Do I trust this person based on everything I know with my life?

Im not going to place a judgement on what went wrong in the events that unfolded. I dont know what really happened. This discussion did not answer any of the questions.

It is not unknown for humans to be economical with the truth, be it personally or in order to survive the rest of their life, its just the way it is. As humans we lie to ourselves more than we lie to others, and that is a whole other subject in itself.

Eric has explained from his perspective what happened. It may or may not be the whole truth. It however, is his truth and he will stand by it because that is what he sees. We have to take him at his explanation because as Rich Borens said, "he was there".

For the rest of us, with our experience of life, our abilities, our individual expertise, our suspicions of circumstance, our natures....... we will form an independent opinion based on all we have observed. It may be wrong, but it is where we will stand.

Im not seeing the outcome of this trip as the ‘problem’. It was the end of a series of events that started a long time ago.

Even though Eric did everything "RIGHT" in the combination and circumstances at the end, it didn’t matter.

Some decisions and attitudes lead a person down a path that are only one way. There are no “if onlys” and “ I could have done it except for………..’ You get one shot at this life thing and you gotta make a choice.

I don’t know Eric the same I don’t know people I read about in books or watch on TV. I see actions and results of actions. It doesn’t affect ME in any way. It does however make me think about attitudes, motivation, personality and preparation, and how MY projects and outcome depends on these things.

Unless we learn to be totally honest about ourselves and our real abilities, which are much MORE than whatever situation we find ourselves in (boat handling or knowing seafaring protocol aside) - the lesson will not have been learned and will happen again and again.

9 out 0f 10 mishaps happen for personality traits. Impatience, anger, sadness, disappointment, fear, arrogance, tiredness, lack of knowledge etc.

Its not for me to discuss publically what conclusions I have drawn regarding the episode, and frankly the only one who cares is me because it is not about this situation, it is about making sure that I do EVERYTHING possible to avoid being in the SAME situation given the same circumstances.

It doesnt mean I wont be shipwrecked....... It means it wont be these circumstances that got me there if I learned from This episode.

For that lesson, I am grateful to Eric and relieved for them all.

It is part of the human nature always to judge others very severely and, when the wind turns against us, always to find an excuse for our own misdeeds, or to blame someone else for our mistakes.

There is no need to blame Rebel Heart collectively for anything. Now they need to inwardly reflect and work it out what went wrong.

Many have given pointers here. Its up to them to take on board the hardest criticisms and see if………….. just if there is validity in the comments.
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Old 16-05-2014, 10:14   #433
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Im not seeing the outcome of this trip as the ‘problem’. It was the end of a series of events that started a long time ago.
...

Unless we learn to be totally honest about ourselves and our real abilities, which are much MORE than whatever situation we find ourselves in (boat handling or knowing seafaring protocol aside) - the lesson will not have been learned and will happen again and again.
...
9 out 0f 10 mishaps happen for personality traits. Impatience, anger, sadness, disappointment, fear, arrogance, tiredness, lack of knowledge etc.
Thats it. You got it. Look inward.
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Old 16-05-2014, 10:36   #434
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Thanks Weavis. Well said.
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Old 16-05-2014, 10:48   #435
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Excellent post, Weavis. This is the heart of the matter.
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