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Old 15-05-2014, 00:09   #346
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
What the heck? He was a third of the way into what was turning into a month long passage. He was trying to get out of the ITCZ into the trades where everybody would be more comfortable. The difference between a close reach and a broad reach is 90 degrees.

So how long did you want him to sail in the wrong direction?

The family got a break. He was trying to balance short term morale and long term morale. Better comfort now for adding days to a long voyage when everybody will be going sir crazy at the end.

He made a good and caring choice as a skipper, father, and husband.


Gadagirl,

looking at the specific posts in isolation makes no sense.
A skipper has to look at the big picture.

Big takeaway for me is the issue of aging and deteriorating sailing vessels aren't as bluewater as many make out. What you can get away with coastal can be a real problem 1000nm offshore.

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Old 15-05-2014, 00:53   #347
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer View Post

The decision to take a small child trans-oceanic is obviously a parental decision and I think that it does not reach the level of governmental intervention. However, I personally, as a pediatric intensive care doctor and a sailor, do not think that the medical risk is acceptable.
You need to expand your horizons a bit outside your sterile environment. RH was going where some societies don't name babies until they are a year old because infant mortality is a way of life.
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Old 15-05-2014, 01:15   #348
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Seriously, what have you all really learned that you didn't already know before this incident? What are you all hiding behind?
Come on Salty, we've learned loads! Such as:
  • Taking children on an extended passage who are too young to have a strong immune system or to describe how they are feeling is a bit risky;
  • Having only one competent sailor on board will be pretty tiring... for them;
  • Being a crewmember on an ocean passage if you haven't really done an extended passage before is a steep learning curve;
  • It's tricky to have the boat set up perfectly all the time if youre basically singlehanded, and this can make you a bit more vulnerable to bad stuff happening;
  • Leaky teakys are liable to develop annoying but not boat threatening leaks;
  • Electronics are vulnerable to seawater;
  • EPIRBs work really well;
  • A fatigued sailor will not be hugely motivated to stay with an already damaged boat if he has an excuse not to (sorry Eric).

Yes we've learned... err... a lot?
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Old 15-05-2014, 01:36   #349
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

I am happy to defend what I have posted, but the couple of people who have taken issue with a couple of things from my posts have either misunderstood or misrepresented those things, so I guess that's not necessary.

Particularly since that was better than I could hope for, on this thread.
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Old 15-05-2014, 03:47   #350
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
You need to expand your horizons a bit outside your sterile environment. RH was going where some societies don't name babies until they are a year old because infant mortality is a way of life.

That's a rather strange attitude. I mean there are societies in Africa where child soldiers are conmonplace , so I suppose you'll have the boy down at the marine recruiting office any day now so.

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Old 15-05-2014, 03:49   #351
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
That's a rather strange attitude. I mean there are societies in Africa where child soldiers are conmonplace , so I suppose you'll have the boy down at the marine recruiting office any day now so.

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Old 15-05-2014, 03:53   #352
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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I've learned there's a lot of people on this thread who will never cross an ocean. Too much analysis and dissection = crippling procrastination.
aka: Analytical paralysis...
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Old 15-05-2014, 03:58   #353
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

It is very troubling having a sick child so far offshore as any parent can tell you. Usually when you get offshore all the colds and stuff falls away and you don't get sick until some new person comes on board. With a baby not responding to antibiotics I would be very concerned indeed.
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Old 15-05-2014, 05:25   #354
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I am happy to defend what I have posted, but the couple of people who have taken issue with a couple of things from my posts have either misunderstood or misrepresented those things, so I guess that's not necessary.

Particularly since that was better than I could hope for, on this thread.
I know you like to post for the sake of posting, but - what are you even talking about?
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Old 15-05-2014, 06:17   #355
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by Andrew B. View Post
aka: Analytical paralysis...
Or paralysis by analysis.

Coops.
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Old 15-05-2014, 06:40   #356
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
Come on Salty, we've learned loads! Such as:
  • Taking children on an extended passage who are too young to have a strong immune system or to describe how they are feeling is a bit risky;
  • Having only one competent sailor on board will be pretty tiring... for them;
  • Being a crewmember on an ocean passage if you haven't really done an extended passage before is a steep learning curve;
  • It's tricky to have the boat set up perfectly all the time if youre basically singlehanded, and this can make you a bit more vulnerable to bad stuff happening;
  • Leaky teakys are liable to develop annoying but not boat threatening leaks;
  • Electronics are vulnerable to seawater;
  • EPIRBs work really well;
  • A fatigued sailor will not be hugely motivated to stay with an already damaged boat if he has an excuse not to (sorry Eric).

Yes we've learned... err... a lot?
I would add " learning to be patient when dealing with mother nature ". The original blogs have an underlying theme of " gotta go, gotta go ".
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Old 15-05-2014, 06:43   #357
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
Come on Salty, we've learned loads!
Sure. Here are my amendments.

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Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
[LIST][*]Taking children on an extended passage who are too young to have a strong immune system or to describe how they are feeling is a bit risky;
Yet living in a large city and driving around with an infant in your SUV carries no risk apparently?

Strangely a google search of infant health brings up a range of information relating to smoking, diet, safe environments, road safety and food allergies. Very little medical advice can be found that suggests that infants are timebombs with fragile immune systems that must be kept within the immediate reach of a western hospital.


Quote:
Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
[*]Being a crewmember on an ocean passage if you haven't really done an extended passage before is a steep learning curve;
[
Agreed. Rebel Heart seemed to be taking this on the chin, up until their daughter's health became a grave concern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
[*]Having only one competent sailor on board will be pretty tiring... for them;
Quote:
Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
[*]It's tricky to have the boat set up perfectly all the time if youre basically singlehanded, and this can make you a bit more vulnerable to bad stuff happening;
It's tricky to have a boat set up 'perfectly' with anything but a full racing crew. There is a difference though between sailing 'perfectly' and sailing safely. I believe Eric was a good conservative sailor, who appeared to be handling his boat well on a difficult passage. Tired and shorthanded???
So what. That is every second boat crossing the Pacific.

Quote:
Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
[*]Leaky teakys are liable to develop annoying but not boat threatening leaks;
Yep and steel boats rust. Who would of thought??


Quote:
Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
[*]Electronics are vulnerable to seawater;
That has been a good reminder. Spent a good ten minutes staring at my SSB and it's proximity to any and all leaks this afternoon. Cling wrap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
[*]EPIRBs work really well;
Do they all?? Perhaps battery life is a interesting little discussion all of it's own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
[*]A fatigued sailor will not be hugely motivated to stay with an already damaged boat if he has an excuse not to (sorry Eric).
I could tell you what I actually think of the above statement, but it would involved bad bad words that would violate the 'be nice' rule.

Instead let me rephrase it for you.

"A worried loving dad will be hugely motivated to see things in perspective in a situation like this and make the decision that family matters more than boat".

Isn't that better?
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Old 15-05-2014, 06:49   #358
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Seriously, what have you all really learned that you didn't already know before this incident? What are you all hiding behind?

I can guarantee, bet a heavy bet even, that everyone of us who is reading this thread will F U in their own unique creative inventive personal way regardless of what we think we "learn" from threads such as this one. Nature will always find a weak link and there are an infinite number to choose from.

Pick your poison.
Agreed. We can analyze this incident to death and something else will bite you in the azz. I believe Eric prepared as well as any reasonable person would do, and likely better. Sit still happened.

Learn what you can. Take reasonable precautions. But don't poop on those who have met that sit hitting the fan.
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Old 15-05-2014, 06:56   #359
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
Come on Salty, we've learned loads! Such as:
  • Taking children on an extended passage who are too young to have a strong immune system or to describe how they are feeling is a bit risky;
  • Having only one competent sailor on board will be pretty tiring... for them;
  • Being a crewmember on an ocean passage if you haven't really done an extended passage before is a steep learning curve;
  • It's tricky to have the boat set up perfectly all the time if youre basically singlehanded, and this can make you a bit more vulnerable to bad stuff happening;
  • Leaky teakys are liable to develop annoying but not boat threatening leaks;
  • Electronics are vulnerable to seawater;
  • EPIRBs work really well;
  • A fatigued sailor will not be hugely motivated to stay with an already damaged boat if he has an excuse not to (sorry Eric).

Yes we've learned... err... a lot?
I feel very sad if you didn't already know all of this already, which can stand alone without any incidents you imagine.

This also goes for all the addendum's others are attaching.

There is nothing profound or different in anything you all list.
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Old 15-05-2014, 07:12   #360
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

I just wanted to thank Smackdaddy and fryewe and the others who have pushed the thoughts on this sinking along in the face of some pretty hostile response from some forum members, and to thank Eric for some good answers to questions.

Some of those wanting to close the thread down think there is nothing to be learned. Why then are some of the most experienced people on the forum - whose who have sailed most and 'know' most - still think there is a need to learn from this incident?
Jim and others who have done this particular passage, Mexico or Panama to Marquesas, all know that it is the longest passage, (or is St Helena - Caribbean) and often done reasonably early in the cruising life.
When I was doing it it gave me the heebie geebies. Right in about the middle of the passage the boat is 3,000nms from any mainland and still half that to some pin-prick of an island without marine facilities, even the closest shipping lane is over 1,000nms away (China to Panama). Its the only time I have felt the real emensity of the earth. In the middle of a big, empty, vast ocean. I was at the wheel (AP on) and just wondered what would happen if I fell over and broke my leg. The answer could well have been death from something so simple.
Fortunately the feeling left by the end of that watch, but the point is EVERYONE must feel it.

If everyone was lost on Rebel Heart there would have been a Coronial (or other) investigation, but because, thankfully, everyone was saved the is no investigation except for the inquiring minds on some lame interweb forum. In my mind this thread is an excellent example of what we can do to educate the new people, the advanced sailors, and the ones who have been there done that... because none of us have 'been there' for everything.

The sick child, the family situation, and the voyage were difficulties enough without having to look at another situation. The decks.

In the dry climate of LA and San Diego the minor leaking every time it rained would have appeared a small problem - "all boats leak". And the lack of good, deep, ocean passages for crew training and boat "shakedown" - a term I hate - would have meant the deck problem didn't show itself.

If we think that there was that much water coming through a rotted deck each day whilst on a broad reach (not close hauled) then those little leaks must have been numerous, or extensive.
In the "quarter" argument Eric avoided answering, directly, where EXACTLY was the water ingress. Actually two part question, where was it you tried to fix, and, were there others. He did say at the deck hull joins, but only the "quarter" not where on the quarter. (it opens a myriad of questions: was the water going through the deck there or further forward and flowing under the teak above the ply to the quarter?) This isnt a criticism of him as he was probably getting more than exasperated at the line of questioning and didnt see the relevance.

If theres a small constant infow every time a wave comes on deck, and the knowledge that the deck is teak on ply, one may deduce after 900 miles that the boat may not last the full 3,000 miles! And then when a big bang happened and the in-flow increased to 70 gallons per day one would really begin to cast their mind back on the integrity of the whole untested deck.

As I said, I had the heeby geebies out about there (on the Galapagos -Marquesas run), but my boat was sound, Nicolle was loving it and no children on board.


So yes, I think there is a lot we have learned, a lot of conjecture that has been useful to have, a lot of food for thought for everyone from those who circumnavigated, or blown many of the oceans to those who have not bought their boat yet, and to even those who can't sail, and those dreamers who enjoy reading to exercise the muscles of their imagination.

We must all imagine likely and unlikely scenarios so we maybe better equipped to handle them when we are at sea... even if our voyage is only off the coast by 2 miles.... remember that man killed just last week in Long Island Sound on a 3 hour cruise.

So, once again thanks to those who have usefully added to this thread, and to Eric for his input. I feel we maybe all just a little bit safer for it.


Mark
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