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Old 14-05-2014, 16:04   #301
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
When I saw someone needed a map to find the starboard quarter, it helped me to realize the large diversity of folks engaged in this conversation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Hey, dude, I put that map up myself! Now it's your turn!

Diversity is a good thing*!

Heh-heh.

(*Elmer's Wood Filler?)
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Old 14-05-2014, 16:17   #302
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
When I saw someone needed a map to find the starboard quarter, it helped me to realize the large diversity of folks engaged in this conversation.


Truth is, there really isn't much to 'learn' from this whole thing for us any more, as you did exactly what any right-minded skipper would have done in the same circumstances. It's pretty patronising to you to keep banging on about what we can and can't learn from it. The whole leak thing is a total storm in a teacup IMHO, leak or no leak you clearly wanted to get off the boat because of your daughter and most of us understand that. I choose to believe you when you say you could have got the boat in to port because guess what, you were there and I wasn't.

I think the example you quoted pretty much sums up the type of people left on this thread... I think I'll leave these sciolists to it.

Best of luck to you and your family. Hope you get a new boat and continue the dream. Remember, Moitessier wrecked three boats, you're only on one... catch up man!
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Old 14-05-2014, 16:31   #303
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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I think I'll leave these sciolists to it.
Now..now...the mods said "no name-calling."

And I have been called a lot of things in both public and private...but never a "sciolist." I don/t know whether to be offended or not.

(Sciolist: Knowing many things but knowing them badly.)
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Old 14-05-2014, 16:40   #304
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Smackdaddy,

The white material on the pic of the cabin top looks to me like paint! In construction of timber boats, the old way, paint was the last layer. [As an aside, think how paint has been used to camouflage rusty bits in used cars....] The Rebel Heart was a transitional boat for that yard, and combined traditional Taiwanese boatbuilding with fiberglass in the hull.

Adodero asked (a couple of pages back) about water for the Mexico-Marquesas trip, and this is certainly soomething that has changed a lot over the years. We left with two 25 gal. tanks full, known consumption of 2 qts. per day, and in addition carried a 5 gal jerry jug for emergency use, it was lashed in the cockpit. We also carried a large sun shower. We also caught water off the mainsail to replenish out tanks in squalls, but did not capture it off the deck. We also had a cockpit awning for use at anchor for catching water--and we still are able to catch rainwater, although now our water tanks are a lot bigger. We used salt water to pre-wash the dishes, and for bathing ourselves, and the sunshower, sparingly, for a rinse off. We also chased squalls for showers, but gave up after the rain kept quitting after we were all soaped up. You get good at dipping a bucket for sea water to rinse off the soap, and finish with just enough to de-salt. And we saved up the laundry till we got to land. It never seemed onerous, it was just how it was. We did carry a Power Survivor 35, which had a manual override, so we could have made enough water to keep us alive, even in the event of power failure.

We had a battery switch fail the other day, and suddenly were without power before the sun came up. Andrew Troup started a thread about what to do if you lose power, makes interesting reading. In our case, Jim just installed the spare, and we'll get another...seems like a good spare to carry. What happened with Rebel Heart and the water ingress jeopardizing their electrics can happen in any boat if the ingress goes unnoticed over a period of time. Some people install alarms in their bilges to let them know if water comes in. It is a good idea to leave the switch off on the bilge pump and start it by hand from time to time. Otherwise you may not notice that it's filling more quickly than previously. (Many boats are set up so that the drips from the packing gland where the prop shaft exits the hull, those drips go through limber holes and gather in the bilge, along with condensation drips from the fridge and any other water that's managed to get loose.)

Ann
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Old 14-05-2014, 18:09   #305
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Broad reaching... preventer...??
Heavy sea's/wind... why not reefed down...??
Squalls no problem.. if hove to the boat will adjust.. okay maybe bouncy for a few minutes.. fore-reaching.. whats the problem.. your miles from land... shut down and take it easy..
Sorry Eric.. I don't get it.. not from what I've read to date.. and at 900 miles off Mexico are you sure your in the ICTZ..
Not a criticism of your decision.. far from it.. you did the right thing as far as I'm concerned with a baby on board..
However your seamanship I do question... the only time I'd rig a preventer is downwind.. no way on a broad reach.
And even on a broad reach in the conditions you describe I'd be reefed to maximum.. but F5-6.. and I do know what the S. Pacific can be like.. you'll roll a lot.. but maybe you should put your A/P on max setting next time you go there..
Agree, why use a preventer in the conditions and point of sail described? That could be a serious problem.
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Old 14-05-2014, 18:11   #306
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
U36, HC36, P36 - whatever - at least it wasn't a Beneteau or catamaran. Those aren't constructed for offshore blue water work at all.

Mark
The bluewater threads often leave me shaking my head.

Eric,

You made the right decisions to manage your potentially life threatening situation. respect
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Old 14-05-2014, 18:15   #307
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

I think this thread has reassured us on one point.

The term "Leaky Teaky" was not coined for purely poetic effect.

I'm with those who consider the discussion of the exact nature and cause of the specific leaks on this specific voyage on this particular vessel to be unprofitable and somewhat peripheral.

As for building detailed inferences on generalised or flimsy data,
I'm reminded of the Cairo tour guide who told his clients
"this particular pyramid is 5002 years old"

When asked how he could pin it down with such accuracy, he explained:
"When I started working here the year before last, I was told it was 5000 years old".
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Old 14-05-2014, 18:58   #308
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

I was inclined to give Rebel Heart the benefit of the doubt after he lost his home, and I am an ignorant jackass who hasn’t sailed around the world eighteen times and therefore shouldn’t even give an opinion at all, but his recent input (and subtly mocking someone who is just trying to figure out this convoluted tale) has made me think he might be trying to obfuscate (I am using big words as I am a sciolist) the story by providing limited, evasive data points under the guise of the story being too complicated for anything but a book. That opens up a whole new can of worms and has encouraged a higher level of speculation about credibility among the unwashed slobbering masses.

Example of obfuscation: “I could have paid more attention to the helm” which translates to “I was in the salon during a squall with an inappropriate sail plan for the sea state and wind conditions with my jury rigged preventer tied to the deck hardware which induced a knockdown and caused significant damage, a demoralizing deck leak, loss of my solar power after already running out of diesel fuel to run the engine and scared the living crap out of my already tormented wife.”

What was the contingency plan for a large and sudden water ingress, considering you were unable to diagnose and treat a minor but fatiguing deck leak over a several day period on a wooden deck you were intimately familiar with? Would that cabin wall mounted Epirb have made it into the ditch bag? Was there a life raft to put the kids and ditch bag into? Had you tested the Epirb before leaving (there is a simple procedure for that.) By regulation, that Epirb would be inadequate for a low income commercial fisherman to use on his small fishing vessel near shore as it is not a more expensive self-deploying model.

Taking small kids far offshore is serious business, if not outright "Candide thinking" especially for someone who isn't prepared to the absolute highest standards even with budget constraints. It is always better to be on the dock continuing to plan and wishing you were out there than being out there and wishing you were back on the dock.
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Old 14-05-2014, 19:00   #309
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

I think the one lesson RH's unfortunate experience teaches similar cruising families is to consider the necessary back up crew on your families first long ocean passage.

What if it had been Eric who was incapacitated as the medical patient while the boat suffered the same problems?

Crew attrition and capabilities are part of ocean passage planning, when you make your first long crossing.

I think Eric put a lot of unnecessary pressure on himself and Charlene, by not taking along another strong pair of hands.
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Old 14-05-2014, 19:19   #310
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Anyone who has been subjected to having their words and actions dissected and pored over by a single prosecutor in front of a roomful of people will still probably struggle to imagine what that might feel like when dozens do so simultaneously on an international forum. We have not been appointed or mandated to stand in judgement here.

I hope this process is working for someone, somewhere, because it's certainly not working for me.
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Old 14-05-2014, 19:29   #311
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pirate re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Anyone who has been subjected to having their words and actions dissected and pored over by a single prosecutor in front of a roomful of people will still probably struggle to imagine what that might feel like when dozens do so simultaneously on an international forum. We have not been appointed or mandated to stand in judgement here.

I hope this process is working for someone, somewhere, because it's certainly not working for me.
Okay... I'll shut up and go away..
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Old 14-05-2014, 19:29   #312
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

....and so it begins....

You expect it from the general public, but from our own family of cruiser...really?
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Old 14-05-2014, 19:36   #313
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

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Can you draw where the damage was from this incident, please? It might help us stay off some wild goose chase
I doubt it. But why do you guy's care anyways. The situation was and is pretty clear.
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Old 14-05-2014, 19:41   #314
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Okay - looking into it a bit more, the rot thing seems to be a primary culprit in the failure of the boat. From 2008:

Rebel Heart - Eric's Blog - Scraping cetol off the decks is fun funÂ*fun

Quote:
c) Epoxy this spongy piece of plywood that the water got too. It's right above my head where I sleep, so I can quickly judge the success of this project the next time it rains at night.


and...

Quote:
I got the deck sanded last night, and managed to pull one of my teak boards up. I put down some Teak Deck Systems (one part) just to get used to the stuff. Instead of taking back all the caulking everywhere I'm going to go after the problem caulking sections first. The downside is that there will be joins between the new rubber and the old rubber, and those might not be completely water tight. But, that's still a hell of a lot better than the huge cracks I currently have. Better to have a couple pin holes here and there than the monster sized 5' cracks I've got on the starboard.
Then in 2010...

Rebel Heart - Eric's Blog - working on the teak decks, coming fullÂ*circle

Quote:
However this particular iteration is special because it marks the gutting of my first repair which was probably two years ago. The job I did was sloppy, stupid, and far too time consuming for the mediocre benefit it provided.

I've seen the consequences of shotty workmanship, and I appreciate my decks for the beautiful composite system that they are.

So it's with a certain joy and rewarding feeling that I'm able to circle back to my horrible deck seams, cut out a bunch of junk, pull some boards, and do things properly. The contrast between where I was and where I am is something that makes me smile as I continue my ritual of keeping the water out.
Between this stuff, termites and rot in the mast, etc. - I seriously feel sorry for the guy. Seems there was A LOT of rot on this boat. Could anything other than a complete re-decking (and more) have made this thing ready for a big offshore passage?

Now I'm even more interested in where the preventer was secured. I'll keep looking.
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Old 14-05-2014, 19:43   #315
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Well, many of us had hoped the one lesson RH learned was a little humility given the thread he himself ironically started mocking a crew for abandoning a perfectly good boat due to exhaustion and bad weather. It is pretty clear he hasn't gotten that message with comments like "I don't think I could have done anything different" and "some people need a map to know where the starboard quarter is." I don't get why people are defending him at this point so ardently. But then, I don't like to take toddlers to a restaurant much less trapping myself in a sailboat with them for weeks on end.

My advice in front of this courtroom of somewhat antagonized interviewers is for Eric to quit blowing smoke up our butts about what really happened or quit giving disinformation altogether. Losing credibility means the actual severity of the child's illness comes into question given the almost impossible temporal concordance with the knockdowns. Physical and mental exhaustion can make people exaggerate or distort their perceptions.

It wasn't a foregone conclusion this endeavor had to end this way, there were many, many things that could have been done differently. And there were many other things that could have happened that would have been worse. Like your boat sinking out from under you and one of your toddlers floating off into a breaking sea.

Andrew, I hope you have decided that water falling off a breaking wave didn't rip out through-bolted deck hardware. Otherwise, surfers all over the planet would be disabled by the thousands on a daily basis.
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