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Old 10-05-2014, 15:30   #16
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

excellent show. not at all biased as i expected it to be. moderator never questioned their judgement.

heard eric and charlotte for the first time. thought they gave an excellent account of what happened and why they made their decisions.

and i don't think it was too much to spend a couple of hundred thousand dollars rescuing four live americans in trouble in the middle of the pacific when we're spending tens of millions of dollars looking for a boeing 777 with a couple of hundred dead people on board....
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Old 10-05-2014, 15:45   #17
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Just a bit of an update/clarifications....(and a bit of my "explanation" / "questions")


Quote:
Originally Posted by four winds View Post
Listened to This American Life earlier today, good interview though only 20 minutes (the usual format of three stories per show with a "theme").

As to damage.... Eric said the boat was broached, mast and sails under water, and forces on the sails and rigging while righting were transferred to the hull causing failure of the hull to deck joint. He estimated an immediate inrush of water at about 70 gallons if I recall correctly. Adding that water was also coming in from an unknown source.
Four winds, a clarification here....
Eric said he estimated about 60 - 70 gallons per day (per 24 hour period) was entering thru the hull-deck joint, and "some" coming in thru an unknown location...
He also mentioned that "where" this water was coming in (starboard aft quarter) was near the radio/antenna connections [I assume their Icom AT-130 tuner and associated wiring/connections) and the battery compartment, so they were not sure if their radio would still work...
(Turns out it was working, but nobody within range was listening)


Water continued to come in through the deck joint as well. I suppose because of the sea state.

The steering was not mentioned in the interview unless I missed hearing it.
You're correct, they made no mention of steering issues....


When the couple began to contemplate hitting the epirb Charlotte said she walked away stating she needed to use the head. In reality she didn't want to face the fact that doing so would mean the loss of sv Rebel Heart. A bit later the button was pressed and the fate of the boat was sealed and they both new it.
A detail that I did not know was that they initially contacted their own doctor (pediatrician?) via their Iridium sat phone, and discussed medical issues regarding their young daughter Lira (13 months old?), ...and he advised giving her Amoxicillin (which they did), but after 3 days, she was not responding favorably...
And, then (at that "3-days of anti-biotic treatment" point) they called the USCG RCC via their Iridium sat phone, to further discuss their daughter's medical problems and the USCG medical officer (?) said that they (USCG) will discuss this medical issue with their doctors further...and they asked them to keep their sat phone ON, and to expect a call back with details...

At this point, Eric said that their sat phone stopped working....he had "SIM Card Error" and could not connect....
So, they had no sat comms...
[They found out AFTER returning home to California, that their sat comm service provider had "changed out" SIM Cards, and had sent them a new SIM Card (via snail-mail) at approx. the time they had departed / within a few days of their departure....and their old SIM was "deactivated' while they were out at sea....]

He then mentioned that he then attempted to raise someone on the "long range radio" [an Icom M-700prp], by "calling Pan Pan, on the distress frequency", but could not get any response...
[I'm not certain what frequency he used, but even though he was aware that the USCG was no longer monitoring 2182 (he commented in that thread last summer), in the interview he said that he tried to call for help by "calling Pan Pan on the distress frequency" (or emergency frequency)...as can w assume he was calling on 2182?? Or was he trying to raise the USCG on 8291, 12290???]
I'm not sure whether he even attempted a VHF and/or a VHF-DSC call....as he did not mention that....(but his confusion about DSC, posted here on this Forum, might point us to make some conclusions...)

It was at this point that they discussed activating their EPIRB....and activating this EPIRB is what set in-motion the rescue that most probably saved their daughter's life...


It was sometime later (a day or so??) that they "heard static on the radio (their VHF radio)....that they thought was dead", this was the USCG aircraft calling....and then they heard a big, loud C-130 buzzing them....and then dropping a big package (which was a "Zodiac" with outboard) and four guys (all by parachute)


Next they related the wait and arrival of the airplane. And how proud they were to live somewhere where strangers would (and could) jump out an aircraft to help them.


I hope these clarifications help...(and make note that I'm not editorializing, just providing some facts and clarifications...)


Fair winds to all..

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 10-05-2014, 16:39   #18
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

'Sounds like... if I decide to waste some time on Sunday listening to the RH interview, there's no doubt in my mind that I'll first need to roll up my pants or have on some shorts before it begins.
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Old 10-05-2014, 16:47   #19
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Ok, I think that here is one lesson we can learn: Every cruiser with HF communications equipment should know that in an emergency, if they can't make contact on the SSB emergency frequencies, they should try making contact on Ham frequencies even if they don't have a Ham license. These cruisers should check the 20 meter Ham band between 14300 and 14350 kHz. Particularly they should try 14313 kHz which is in use almost 24/7 as an emergency traffic net.

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Old 10-05-2014, 17:18   #20
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by four winds View Post
As to damage.... Eric said the boat was broached, mast and sails under water, and forces on the sails and rigging while righting were transferred to the hull causing failure of the hull to deck joint. He estimated an immediate inrush of water at about 70 gallons if I recall correctly. Adding that water was also coming in from an unknown source.

Water continued to come in through the deck joint as well. I suppose because of the sea state.
Blimey, on a Hans Christian. That's rough. That blows most of the 'why did they abandon' guff we've heard straight out of the window.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
It just seems crackers to me for anyone venturing out to spend so much time learning the sextant (as Eric did) but no time learning DSC etc.
What's there to 'learn' about DSC? He had it, I'm sure he knew how to use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Or, for example, so into paper charts but they don't have Google Earth images and position in real time on Google Earth cached images, and a variety of ECN options.
You're really suggesting that not plotting his position in Google Earth was a failing? Who does that?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
That "seamanship" is so important and not running into ships so important but will not buy a modern device like an AIS Transponder.
Rebel Heart was AIS equipped, and had been for some time. Records show it was functioning as they left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Sat phone really only for work, and would not have been brought along for weather.
He had a satphone and apparently used it regularly. It wasn't his fault it stopped working. What's your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
The weirdest thing about this particular sinking is that Eric is quite a young man... Much younger than most of us. But steeped deeply into the old ways.

Forum threads often seem to be biased towards the old technology... The writers who use the new kit just dropping out of a discussion whenever someone says "GPS - nice toy but wait till the satellites fall out of the sky"
That doesn't really sound like Eric, anything but. They had VHF/DSC, GPS, AIS, SSB, Satphone, laptop, EPIRB... how much more tech do you think they should have had?! Bet they wished they had spent the money on some glassfibre and resin to do the hull deck joint rather than on that AIS unit... or a spare rudder cable (just a guess...) rather than a spare VHF, etc etc.

Maybe some are 'biased towards the old technology' - but if this means spending money on making the boat seaworthy at the expense of a few electronic gizmos then I'm happy with that. Or teaching your crew proper seamanship rather than how to punch buttons on the DSC which, really, isn't that important. Tech is great, it can be a real help, but it's only useful on a boat which is still afloat.

I haven't previously felt the need to comment on a Rebel Heart thread, but now we know some of the details and you're still attacking him for who knows what reason I really felt moved to. I just don't see your point.
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Old 10-05-2014, 17:39   #21
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post

I haven't previously felt the need to comment on a Rebel Heart thread, but now we know some of the details and you're still attacking him for who knows what reason I really felt moved to. I just don't see your point.
Wow.... they must be the luckiest people in the whole universe. I know if our Oyster got knocked on it's side, my wife and I would surely be banged up and probably seriously injured. The RH group... no mention of injuries.

I'm lactose and BS intolerant.
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Old 10-05-2014, 17:46   #22
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Yep, Paul, this is great advice!!!
1) But, it's 14.300mhz that's in use almost 24/7....
NOBODY should recommend 14.313!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking Sailor View Post
Ok, I think that here is one lesson we can learn: Every cruiser with HF communications equipment should know that in an emergency, if they can't make contact on the SSB emergency frequencies, they should try making contact on Ham frequencies even if they don't have a Ham license. These cruisers should check the 20 meter Ham band between 14300 and 14350 kHz. Particularly they should try 14313 kHz which is in use almost 24/7 as an emergency traffic net.
There is the Intercon Net, MMSN, and the Pacific Seafarer's Net...all on 14.300mhz....
14300.net

The BEST 20-Meter Net Going! | A member of the 14.300 mHz net family.
1100z - 1600z

Maritime Mobile Service Network
1600z - 0200z

Welcome to the Pacific seafarer's net | Pacific seafarer's net
0300z - 0500z


The dedicated folks that run these nets above, are a far cry from the lids on 14.313....the operators on 14.313 are not just an embarrassment to ham radio, but to most of humanity!

Please do not click on these sites, unless you wish to be disgusted...
A word from the ARRL regarding HF enforcement on 14313 et al. : amateurradio
THE 14.313 MHz LID PAGE
14.313 MHz and Company




2) And, FYI....
The Maritime GMDSS Distress / Calling freqs are:

Voice: 2182khz; 4125khz; 6215khz; 8291khz; 12290khz; 16420khz...

DSC: 2187.5khz; 4207.5khz; 6213khz; 8414.5khz; 12577khz; 16804.5khz

Quote:
Effective 01 August, 2013, the U. S. Coast Guard terminated its radio guard of the international voice distress, safety and calling frequency 2182 kHz and the international digital selective calling (DSC) distress and safety frequency 2187.5 kHz. Additionally, marine information and weather broadcasts transmitted on 2670 kHz will terminate concurrently.


NBDP (SITOR): 4210khz; 6314khz; 8416.5khz; 12579khz; 16806.5khz; 19680.5khz; 22376khz; 26100.5khz;


Here is the USCG Calling/Distress Freq page...
DSC DISTRESS





All above is just for information/clarifications...

Fair winds...


John
s/v Annie Laurie





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Old 10-05-2014, 17:50   #23
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Wow.... they must be the luckiest people in the whole universe. I know if our Oyster got knocked on it's side, my wife and I would surely be banged up and probably seriously injured. The RH group... no mention of injuries.

I'm lactose and BS intolerant.
You're saying they made up the knockdown?
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Old 10-05-2014, 18:10   #24
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Europaflyer,
Some clarifications for you....


Quote:
Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
What's there to 'learn' about DSC? He had it, I'm sure he knew how to use it.
a) They did NOT have Mf/HF-DSC, as their "SSB radio" was an Icom M-700Pro...
b) They did have a VHF-DSC radio, but had never used the DSC functions (as of March of 2014), and I'm assuming they did not have either a MMSI#, nor had it programmed into it (hence the DSC functions would not work)....and probably did NOT have GPS inputed to the VHF-DSC radio (without an MMSI#, it wasn't going to work in any case...)

I assume these two things above, are what Mark was referring to...



That doesn't really sound like Eric, anything but. They had VHF/DSC, GPS, AIS, SSB, Satphone, laptop, EPIRB... how much more tech do you think they should have had?!
I cannot speak for Mark....but if you ask me....
I think not understanding how DSC works, nor the how's/why's of MF/HF-DSC, etc. are a valid point to make....
(please understand again, I'm NOT being critical here, and am making NO judgments....just providing clarifications...)

Or teaching your crew proper seamanship rather than how to punch buttons on the DSC which, really, isn't that important. Tech is great, it can be a real help, but it's only useful on a boat which is still afloat.
Yes, this is a VERY good point....
But possibly the facts that they were not sinking and did have plenty of electrical power, and a few days passed between the time they called their pediatrician, and they called the USCG (both via their sat phone), some may wonder "what if's".....

Now in my mind, 20/20 hindsight, especially that spouted off on the internet, is....well it's a bit rude....but hey, every is entitled to express their opinions!!
So, maybe just take it all in....but not too seriously!!


Fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 10-05-2014, 18:13   #25
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
You're saying they made up the knockdown?
I'm saying... my wife and I had a backyard organic garden for over 10 years. I can recognize B.S. when I smell it.
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Old 10-05-2014, 18:17   #26
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
Yep, Paul, this is great advice!!!
1) But, it's 14.300mhz that's in use almost 24/7....
NOBODY should recommend 14.313!!!
There is the Intercon Net, MMSN, and the Pacific Seafarer's Net...all on 14.300mhz....
14300.net

The BEST 20-Meter Net Going! | A member of the 14.300 mHz net family.
1100z - 1600z

Maritime Mobile Service Network
1600z - 0200z

Welcome to the Pacific seafarer's net | Pacific seafarer's net
0300z - 0500z


The dedicated folks that run these nets above, are a far cry from the lids on 14.313....the operators on 14.313 are not just an embarrassment to ham radio, but to most of humanity!

Please do not click on these sites, unless you wish to be disgusted...
A word from the ARRL regarding HF enforcement on 14313 et al. : amateurradio
THE 14.313 MHz LID PAGE
14.313 MHz and Company




2) And, FYI....
The Maritime GMDSS Distress / Calling freqs are:

Voice: 2182khz; 4125khz; 6215khz; 8291khz; 12290khz; 16420khz...

DSC: 2187.5khz; 4207.5khz; 6213khz; 8414.5khz; 12577khz; 16804.5khz



NBDP (SITOR): 4210khz; 6314khz; 8416.5khz; 12579khz; 16806.5khz; 19680.5khz; 22376khz; 26100.5khz;


Here is the USCG Calling/Distress Freq page...
DSC DISTRESS





All above is just for information/clarifications...

Fair winds...


John
s/v Annie Laurie





John, You are correct. Thanks for the updated info. What Ham frequencies would you recommend for emergency communications? Maybe ordered by area and time-of-day. Thanks.

Sorry all! I was working from outdated experience and internet links.

Best regards,

Paul
we6p
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Old 10-05-2014, 18:21   #27
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

@ka4wja... Good memory you have. I believe your updates and additions are correct and I recall them as well, triggered by your statements.

It was a daily figure for water and Ira Glass mentioned they had a manual pump good for one gallon per stroke, clearing the boat in an hour or so each day. They even seemed to downplay that as a trip ender. Possibly the "inrush" I stated was from the broach, and I think he may have given a quantity on that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
Just a bit of an update/clarifications....(and a bit of my "explanation" / "questions")






I hope these clarifications help...(and make note that I'm not editorializing, just providing some facts and clarifications...)


Fair winds to all..

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 10-05-2014, 18:36   #28
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

For what it's worth I take a man at his word (woman too) until I have a reason to believe otherwise. Therefore I feel the couple are relating the events as they happened and can't imagine how anyone could know any reason not to.
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Old 10-05-2014, 18:57   #29
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I'm saying... my wife and I had a backyard organic garden for over 10 years. I can recognize B.S. when I smell it.
We got broached and a subsequent larger breaking wave hit us while we were still beam to, I know the boom went in the water but I highly doubt the mast did.

We were broad reaching and our boom was 19' long, with maybe 12' of beam, so it was decently out there.

On a port tack we slept along the starboard side so there was no real people injuries. The boat was secured from missile hazards from weeks of bumpy seas prior to that.

I was actually in the companionway so fairly well braced. I held on tight, waited to get righted, then climbed over the plexiglass, clipped in, and started surveying damage.

We were dealing, I think, with where the easterly trades run into the equatorial counter current. That heaped the seas a bit and provided more than one swell direction.

Feel free to believe what you like.

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Old 10-05-2014, 19:03   #30
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re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

Certainly plenty of time has passed to craft a more perfect story. Details still seem a bit vague to me.

One thing for sure, it would have sucked with all those guys on the boat for what 4 days? For some reason I thought they were transferred to the ship not onboard Rebel Heart all those days.

Also didn't mention the crew makeup of other boat cited with young children and sizes of their boats. Almost all boats we meet crossing the pacific with very young children had a full time care giver/ crew member as well as 2 more to actually sail the yacht.

I still believe that was overall the biggest mistake.
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