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Old 17-01-2017, 20:46   #61
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Re: Best country to flag

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Must be a Canadian citizen or a Canadian Corporation to own a Canadian Registered Vessel.

You pay no taxes or duties unless/until the boat is brought back to Canada and there is no requirement to do so

The $250 is a one time fee with no renewal costs.
Of course this is one of the reasons to register elsewhere if you ever intend on returning to Canada with the vessel. Then you get the same treatment re Customs as any other foreign boat.

No if only they would get rid of the archaic necessity to measure a vessel over 40'.

I think I will look into Malaysia. I don't see the Canadian Navy around these parts of the world too often although most of the Maritime Malaysia boats are tied to the dock 24/7.
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Old 18-01-2017, 08:32   #62
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Re: Best country to flag

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Just remember, the primary purpose of registration is to gaurantee your title to the boat.

If you register in some backwater and/or pay corrupt officials you are undermining your title.

Registering in the US and/or Australia is much, much cheaper and easier than registering in Langwaki or Vanuatu or most other backwaters.

Unless you have paid crew or are the citizen of another backwater country there are few rational reasons to get a flag of convenience.
Hello SVSeaChange,

I absolutely agreed 100% with StuM, Undercutter, Boatpoker, Pelagic and others but NOT you! Registration is for Nationality and absolutely NOT for the title.

UN is a body and UNCLOS is the written regulations. It is the International laws of the sea created by the UN. All floating vessels must complied with it together with SOLAS (SOLAS V, specially for yacht), COLREG, MARPOL, MLC 2006 (Act 2014) and etc.

Australia is the member of UN and needs to complied with all the rules and regulations above. MLC 2006 means Maritime Labour Convention year 2006 (revised 2014). Every sea going vessels including yacht need to comply.

There are few good maritime college in Australia ie. Great Barrier Reef International Marine College, Australia Maritime College in Tasmania and etc. Advise to attend for STCW COC Classes (Standard Training Certification and Watch-keeping of Certificate of Competency) either Class 4 (Master of Near-Continental Vessel) or Class 1 (Master of Unlimited Vessel). With that certification, knowledge, experience and sea-time you will be a perfect seaman.

Well, Day Light Skipper and/or Personal Craft/High Speed Craft License are not good enough.

Please do not confused others in this forum, if you are not really sure.

Have a nice day!
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Old 18-01-2017, 08:48   #63
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Re: Best country to flag

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Hello SVSeaChange,

I absolutely agreed 100% with StuM, Undercutter, Boatpoker, Pelagic and others but NOT you! Registration is for Nationality and absolutely NOT for the title.

UN is a body and UNCLOS is the written regulations. It is the International laws of the sea created by the UN. All floating vessels must complied with it together with SOLAS (SOLAS V, specially for yacht), COLREG, MARPOL, MLC 2006 (Act 2014) and etc.

Australia is the member of UN and needs to complied with all the rules and regulations above. MLC 2006 means Maritime Labour Convention year 2006 (revised 2014). Every sea going vessels including yacht need to comply.

There are few good maritime college in Australia ie. Great Barrier Reef International Marine College, Australia Maritime College in Tasmania and etc. Advise to attend for STCW COC Classes (Standard Training Certification and Watch-keeping of Certificate of Competency) either Class 4 (Master of Near-Continental Vessel) or Class 1 (Master of Unlimited Vessel). With that certification, knowledge, experience and sea-time you will be a perfect seaman.

Well, Day Light Skipper and/or Personal Craft/High Speed Craft License are not good enough.

Please do not confused others in this forum, if you are not really sure.

Have a nice day!
I am not an attorney, but I would have an issue with that. A private vessel is not subject to commercial regulations and codes if not registered as such and is not operating as a business.

A comparative analogy would be U.S. Department of Transportation rules. You do not need to have a commercial driver's license to own, operate any motor vehicle up to a certain axle combination and weight. And there are exceptions to that like huge motorhomes, converted semi trucks (articulated lorries) etc. These vehicles are not subject to Federal DOT rules of operating on the highways which are commercial statutes.

The U.N. or any other sovereign nation might claim some kind if extra territorial jurisdiction on the high seas, but at least in U.S. law this is limited to the so-called "drug war", and vessels of any nation engaged in hostilities with the United States.
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Old 18-01-2017, 08:49   #64
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Re: Best country to flag

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Originally Posted by undercutter View Post
Of course this is one of the reasons to register elsewhere if you ever intend on returning to Canada with the vessel. Then you get the same treatment re Customs as any other foreign boat.

No if only they would get rid of the archaic necessity to measure a vessel over 40'.

I think I will look into Malaysia. I don't see the Canadian Navy around these parts of the world too often although most of the Maritime Malaysia boats are tied to the dock 24/7.
Don't worry Undercutter, Langkawi registry LOA 24 meters (78') and above, for commercial trading needs to be classed. They strictly followed SOLAS V of 2014.
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Old 18-01-2017, 08:49   #65
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Re: Best country to flag

What a treat, respectful disagreement. I just quit Trawler Forum due to mean spirited personal attacks and cheap shots over insignificant disagreements. Hope this place continues to play nice.
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Old 18-01-2017, 09:24   #66
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Re: Best country to flag

Reading the Australian site, it basically is saying that the Australian registry also functions as a title search because it maintains good records of ownership and subsequent transfers. Doesn't really offer much unless you're in the business of flipping boats and routinely encounter issues about whether you have title in entirety to sell.
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Old 18-01-2017, 09:38   #67
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Re: Best country to flag

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I am not an attorney, but I would have an issue with that. A private vessel is not subject to commercial regulations and codes if not registered as such and is not operating as a business.

A comparative analogy would be U.S. Department of Transportation rules. You do not need to have a commercial driver's license to own, operate any motor vehicle up to a certain axle combination and weight. And there are exceptions to that like huge motorhomes, converted semi trucks (articulated lorries) etc. These vehicles are not subject to Federal DOT rules of operating on the highways which are commercial statutes.

The U.N. or any other sovereign nation might claim some kind if extra territorial jurisdiction on the high seas, but at least in U.S. law this is limited to the so-called "drug war", and vessels of any nation engaged in hostilities with the United States.
Dear RPZ,

No, you are totally wrong. Please read and understand SOLAS V below:

SOLAS V for Pleasure Craft.
(This chapter shall apply to all ships on all voyages).

In addition to SOLAS V, pleasure boat users should note that the International Convention for Preventing Collisions at Sea (COLREGs) applies and therefore you should ensure that the correct lights and shapes are carried and appropriately displayed. The International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships (MARPOL) also applies. You should not discharge oil or drop garbage into the sea and vessels over 12m should display a placard. Vessels over 13.7m in length are required to meet certain lifesaving and fire protection requirements.

Voyage Planning
Regulation V/34 ‘Safe Navigation and avoidance of dangerous situations’, is a new regulation. It concerns prior-planning for your boating trip, more commonly known as voyage or passage planning. Voyage planning is basically common sense. As a pleasure boat user, you should particularly take into account the following points when planning a boating trip:
weather: before you go boating, check the weather forecast and get regular updates if you are planning to be out for any length of time.
• tides: check the tidal predictions for your trip and ensure that they fit with what you are planning to do.
• limitations of the vessel: consider whether your boat is up to the proposed trip and that you have sufficient safety equipment and stores with you.
• crew: take into account the experience and physical ability of your crew. Crew members suffering from cold, tiredness and seasickness won’t be able to do their job properly and could even result in an overburdened skipper.
• navigational dangers: make sure you are familiar with any navigational dangers you may encounter during your boating trip. This generally means checking an up to date chart and a current pilot book or almanac carried on-board.
• contingency plan: always have a contingency plan in case something goes wrong. Before you go, consider places where you can take refuge should conditions deteriorate or if you suffer an incident or injury. Bear in mind that your GPS set is vulnerable and could fail at the most inconvenient time. This might be due to problems with electrical systems, jamming or interference with the signals or meteorological activity. It is sensible and good practice to make sure you are not over-reliant on your GPS set and that you have sufficient skills and information (charts, almanac and pilot book) to navigate yourself to safety without it should it fail.
• information ashore: make sure that someone ashore knows your plans and knows what to do should they become concerned for your wellbeing. For an example in UK - The MCA recommends joining the Coastguard Voluntary Safety Identification Scheme (commonly known as CG66) which is free and easy to join. The scheme aims to help the coastguard to help you quickly should you get into trouble while boating. It could save your life. Join CG66 online at www.gov.uk - search under CG66.

Radar Reflectors
Many large ships rely on radar for navigation and for spotting other vessels in their vicinity. So, whatever size your boat is, it is important to make sure that you can be seen by radar. SOLAS Regulation V/19 requires all small craft (less than 150GT) to fit a radar reflector or other means, to enable detection by ships navigating by radar at both 9 and 3 GHz ‘if practicable’. This means if it is possible to use a radar reflector on your boat then you should use one. You should fit the largest radar reflector in terms of Radar Cross Section (RCS) that you can. Whatever length your boat is, the radar reflector should be fitted according to the manufacturer’s instructions, and as high as possible to maximise its effectiveness.

Life-Saving Signals
SOLAS Regulation V/29 requires you to have access to an illustrated table of the recognised life-saving signals, so that you can communicate with the search and rescue services, or other vessels, if you get into trouble. - You can get a free copy of this table in a leaflet produced by the MCA, search www.gov.uk for ‘Navigation Safety leaflets’ to find a link to an ordering site. It is also available in various nautical publications. If your vessel is not suitable for carrying a copy of the table on board (because it is small or very exposed), make sure you have studied the table before you go boating.

Assistance to other Craft Regulations V/31, V/32 and V/33 require you:
• to let the Shore Station/Coastguard and any other vessels in the vicinity know if you encounter anything that could cause a serious hazard to navigation, if it has not already been reported. You can do this by calling the Shore Station or Coastguard on VHF, if you have it on board, or by telephoning them at the earliest opportunity. The Coastguard will then warn other vessels in the area.
• to respond to any distress signal that you see or hear and help anyone or any boat in distress as best you can.

Misuse of Distress Signals
Regulation V/35 prohibits misuse of any distress signals. These are critical to safety at sea and by misusing them you could put your or someone else’s life at risk.

Secondly, U.S. Department of Transportation rules. These rules and regulations applied for US only and are NOT international. Some country with left-handed and some with right-handed steering, that are all local rules.

The U.N. or any other sovereign nation might claim some kind if extra territorial jurisdiction on the high seas - No and never. UN is NOT a country or Government, so it will never claim anything but China done it illegally and not recognized internationally. Under UNCLOS, 12 nautical miles is your territorial waters, 200 nautical miles is EEZ, above is International waters.

Last but not least, "drug war", and vessels of any nation engaged in hostilities with the United States or any other country, the laws are the same. Within 12 n.m, you may board and detain them, that is your territorial waters. below 200 n.m is your Economic Exclusive Zone (EEZ), you have the right to fish, mine, drill, exploration and etc. Above 200 n.m is called International Waters, no right to board and may refuse any Naval and/or Coast Guard vessels to stop and/or board your vessel. Shot at them, they will shot you back!

Drug, pirate, smuggler, hostilities etc vessels are not accepted. Any action can be taken against them, either in territorial, EEZ and/or International waters to prevent from coming or endanger other sea users.

Have a nice day.....
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Old 18-01-2017, 10:03   #68
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Re: Best country to flag

Helise no disagreements there. Except I do not accept or comply, except with free will, any merchant or commercial codes as a private citizen not engaged in commerce. The SOLAS police are welcome to try and prove jurisdiction in any court of a sovereign nation under which I am flagged. Whether I am on my replica viking boat, my ocean rowing boat, or my sailboat.

Any sailboat I might have is not a "pleasure" vessel. It is a residence when in home port, and means of travel - like a bicycle or horse - on the open sea to get from a to b. Any "pleasure" is coincidental only when traveling.
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Old 18-01-2017, 10:47   #69
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Re: Best country to flag

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Helise no disagreements there. Except I do not accept or comply, except with free will, any merchant or commercial codes as a private citizen not engaged in commerce. The SOLAS police are welcome to try and prove jurisdiction in any court of a sovereign nation under which I am flagged. Whether I am on my replica viking boat, my ocean rowing boat, or my sailboat
Hi! RPZ,

Sorry, you are confused and/or maybe do not understand it. SOLAS means Safety Of Life At Sea. SOLAS has no police and it is not a police too.

I don't really know where your yacht flagged but for your info, there are officers called "flag state control" on every maritime nations of the world including US, China, Russian and others. There are person goes around the ports and marinas to inspect every floating vessels either commercial or private used including yacht to comply with the SOLAS rules and regulations.

Officers from USCG for US, JCG for Japan, MCA for UK, Port Master for Singapore, Marine Department for Malaysia, Chinese Coast Guard for China and etc.

If they found that your yacht is not complied with the rules and regulations, they might and can detain your vessel. For an example, if you are sailing at night in Chesapeake Bay waterways without navigation lights, they might and will detain your boat. In Singapore, Phuket and others, if your vessel do not have AIS on-board, you are not allows to enter their territorial waters and marina/port. If you entered, you will be fine.

Please do that in those countries, and you will learn a lesson.
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Old 18-01-2017, 11:14   #70
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Re: Best country to flag

Well firstly, the only regs I must comply with operating a private vessel in U.S. waters are those of the U.S. Coast Guard for private vessels. Likewise your vessel must be compliant with the laws of any nation when entering *their* territorial waters.

But I can not put it any simpler than this. SOLAS is by its title an agreement for seagoing commerce. The arbitrary attempt to include private vessels not engaged in any form of commerce does not any legal argument make.

A U.S. flagged private vessel falls under the jurisdiction and laws of the United States. That is why I can carry firearms on my boat if I am in international waters if I choose to do so.

Under U.S. law going back to its foundation there is a distinct separation of jurisdiction between commerce and the activities of citizens not engaged in commerce. Under U.S. jurisprudence you can not drag a citizen who is not engaged in any commercial operation and prosecute them under a commercial statute. There is no such thing as a commercial code, regulation or stature that can used to impede, interfere or in any other way harm a citizen not engaged in commerce.

If I were a U.S. citizen, on a U.S. flagged private vessel on the open seas I would fall under the protection of U.S. law and the U.S. government.

All I can say is, in a nut shell, I'd laugh you out of court
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Old 18-01-2017, 14:44   #71
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Re: Best country to flag

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If I were a U.S. citizen, on a U.S. flagged private vessel on the open seas I would fall under the protection of U.S. law and the U.S. government.

All I can say is, in a nut shell, I'd laugh you out of court
A US vessel in international waters falls under International Law.
US law goes no further than their own borders.
This very issue, thinking their rules apply to the rest of the world is the source of much enmity in the world towards the US.
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Old 18-01-2017, 14:55   #72
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Re: Best country to flag

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A US vessel in international waters falls under International Law.
US law goes no further than their own borders.
This very issue, thinking their rules apply to the rest of the world is the source of much enmity in the world towards the US.
Mate you're off base.

US law extends to US flag vessels, US nationals and also to external parties with regard to conduct that impact US nationals. This isn't unusual or unique to the US.

In fact public international law is enshrined in the US Constitution.
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Old 18-01-2017, 15:17   #73
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Re: Best country to flag

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A US vessel in international waters falls under International Law.
US law goes no further than their own borders.
This very issue, thinking their rules apply to the rest of the world is the source of much enmity in the world towards the US.
That's what THEY say. And I get your point. But any U.S. flagged vessel, registered or unregistered (a vessel's nationality can be the verbal claim of the boat's master - that is written into CG definitions) is considered U.S. sovereign territory.

A baby born on a U.S. flagged vessel can be entitled to U.S. citizenship. A crime, such as a murder, on a U.S. flagged vessel could be tried in a U.S. court. An attack of any kind, an illegal by force boarding of, or illegal seizure of a U.S. flagged vessel is considered a hostile act against the United States. The extent with which the government presses a protective or forceful intervention, rebuttal, retaliation etc might vary. But obligation and jurisdiction is there.

Extra terroritorial jurisdiction exists by ratified (by Congress) treaty with other countries to extend U.S. law into some foreign countries and actions on the high seas against drug traffickers, human traffickers etc.

International law can only really be applied to commercial air and sea traffic by ratified treaty. As a private citizen of a sovereign nation on a private vessel they lack jurisdiction.

Now if you get off your U.S. flagged boat, and board someone's Australian flagged boat and commit a serious crime, you could be tried in an Australian court.
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Old 18-01-2017, 15:51   #74
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Re: Best country to flag

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I currently am flagged/registered in Panama.
Looking for a better country to register in which has little or no import cost, doesn't require you or your boat to be present and has a reasonable fee.
Panama's fees are getting out of hand.

Thank you for input..
How about the country you live in ? I always heard love it or leave. You are free to leave most countries. I would suggest leave and become a citizen and fly whatever flag you want. How do you think a member of the US Coast guard or insert the name of any nation would feel risking or having lost life to rescue or defend a flag of convenience ? Just because you can will not make it right or moral. You can legally deal drugs in some places of the world. Women can be legally treated to a much different standard. You can go to whatever place and stay within the law of the land. In the end is it right? Do you feel good to know you saved some money that you need so bad. If you lived in said country or keep your boat there that might be the best. I say all this without malice. All this was probably a waste of time . Regards, Lou
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Old 18-01-2017, 16:21   #75
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Re: Best country to flag

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How about the country you live in ? I always heard love it or leave. You are free to leave most countries. I would suggest leave and become a citizen and fly whatever flag you want. How do you think a member of the US Coast guard or insert the name of any nation would feel risking or having lost life to rescue or defend a flag of convenience ? Just because you can will not make it right or moral. You can legally deal drugs in some places of the world. Women can be legally treated to a much different standard. You can go to whatever place and stay within the law of the land. In the end is it right? Do you feel good to know you saved some money that you need so bad. If you lived in said country or keep your boat there that might be the best. I say all this without malice. All this was probably a waste of time . Regards, Lou
Not sure the OP requested or required a morals lesson.
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