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Old 29-11-2016, 06:34   #106
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Polux, heavily loaded modern boats sailed by cruisers do not get decent speeds DDW in 10 knots of true wind. The seas are seldom flat and it's a pain, nice to have at least 15 knots in those conditions and 20 knots is about perfect.
I guess it depends on the boats. Light modern mass production boats will have a decent speed, performance cruisers even better, medium weigh cruisers will be struggling and heavy boats will go very slowly.

For decent speed I am talking slightly above 5 for modern mass production boats and over 6 to performance cruisers (loaded boats).

Off course, 15K will be better for all, but MUCH better for heavy or medium weight boats.
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Old 29-11-2016, 07:12   #107
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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I don't helm the boat... the AP does it. I watch, trim, check the instruments, clean, fix, cook, eat, read, converse with the wifey. I helm them boat going on and off a dock or a few times a year in and out of a slip. Occasionally when there are fabulous condition I will helm or when the AP is not dealing with large quartering seas well. And no cruiser helms the boat except as I do most probably. It's just too boring... or in rough conditions too exhausting.
If you don't helm the boat often then why are you making an issue out of sitting on the high or low side?

And you sit on the low side in large quartering seas? Interesting.
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Old 30-11-2016, 04:18   #108
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Among multihulls, Nigel Irens design APC 78 has deeply disappointed me..747 nm to go , only 75 nm ahead of X5 Outremer and 130 nm ahead of Catana 531..


APC 78 has a rating of 1,537 vs. 1,262 for X5 and only 1,126 for Catana 531..In corrected time, Catana currently is 98 hours ahead of APC , assuming both they used the engine the same amount..
Assuming again that APC had a professional skipper onboard, that's incredible..


I know ARC doesn't give a clear idea on the performance of the boats for many reasons, but it's hard to believe. Am I missing something ??


Cheers


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Old 30-11-2016, 05:59   #109
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Among multihulls, Nigel Irens design APC 78 has deeply disappointed me..747 nm to go , only 75 nm ahead of X5 Outremer and 130 nm ahead of Catana 531..


APC 78 has a rating of 1,537 vs. 1,262 for X5 and only 1,126 for Catana 531..In corrected time, Catana currently is 98 hours ahead of APC , assuming both they used the engine the same amount..
Assuming again that APC had a professional skipper onboard, that's incredible..


I know ARC doesn't give a clear idea on the performance of the boats for many reasons, but it's hard to believe. Am I missing something ??

Cheers

Yeloya
Hi!

Even for the ones that are racing this is a low profile race, one for amateurs if we exclude the two first boats that have long arrived, being the crew from Rambler a true professional one and the one of Trifork a semi-pro crew.

What you describe with Neigel Irens APC 78 happens also with many mono hulls, for instance with the VOR 70 Sanya(1.654) that is not far ahead of the Nigel Irens 78 (1.537) or the Southern wind 82(1.439) that is just 36nm ahead of it

The Outremer 5x(1.262) is a much better sailed boat, that is slightly behind a 40ftPogoS2 (1.252) and slightly ahead of a 40ftAkilaria (1231) boats with not very dissimilar ratings and all relatively well sailed.

The Catana 531 (1.126), that is 52.5 nm behind the 40ftPogos2 (1.252) seems to me one of the best sailed boats on the fleet, on par for instance with a medium weight Discovery 55 (1.072) that is at only 154.2nm.

It is always more difficult to sail a very fast boat close to his true rating than to sail a less fast one near his rating, it is needed a much better crew for that. It happens not only in sail boat racing but also in car racing. I believe that is what explains the bad performance of a VOR 70 or the performance of that Nigel Irens 78ft cat.

Regards

Paulo
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Old 30-11-2016, 06:37   #110
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Regarding the weather conditions on the passage, the ones on the head of the transat on the North of the Rhumb line seem to be out of trouble, having around 10k or over till the finish. The ones that are on the tail on that course can however be caught by very light winds No problem for the ones on the middle.

For the ones that chose a middle way passage, that is normally the more common choice, below the rhumb line, not too much to the South and that stayed there, having not the good sense to escape more to the South or North, they will not have wind at all and are in trouble.

The wind it will only arrive there tomorrow but it will not be the trade winds but some variable weak winds that will come and go leaving zones with no with at all. A bit scary specially to the ones that sail medium or heavy boats with a bad sailing performance on those conditions.

I believe the organization has to organize a rescue plan to provide some boats with provisions and water (for the ones that don't have a watermaker) because some are going to stay there much more than what they thought.
https://www.windytv.com/?35.461,-36.387,5

This is a year that show clearly the advantage of having a fast sailing boat with good performance on light winds, even in what regards safety.

Regarding that it would be interesting to look at the performance of that Colvic 37 and First 40.7, that El Pinguino has referred. They sailed out several days after the others (the Colvic 37 sailed more than a day before the First) and that at some point were close. The First had "lost" a lot of miles going directly North while the Colvic 37 decided to stay on the same course that has little wind ahead.

The First 40.7 is making 5K in 9k winds and the Colvic37 is making also in 9K winds 3.9K speed.The Colvic 37 is a 30 year old design, not one that could be considered slow on his time or particularly heavy, but a heavy and slow one by today's standards.
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Old 01-12-2016, 10:28   #111
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Today I will have a look at the fastest cruising boats on the ARC taking price in consideration.

Regarding the 50/60ft mass production boats the focus goes clearly to two boats, with a special mention to the Moore 55, that is not only cheaper but faster and the Dufour 525. Other mass production boats that are going well are an older Beneteau 50, a Jeanneau 54ds, a Bavaria 50 and a Jeanneau SO49.

Dufour 525 GL

Sailing a bit behind these boats (regarding the Moore 55 and the Dufour 525, a lot behind) we can consider with a similar price tag the two smaller condo cats that are sailing faster, a Lagoon 42 and a Fountain Pajot 40. All this boats are ahead of the 55ft Chris white trimaran.

Lagoon 42

Regarding really inexpensive boats, the focus go to the Dufour 385, that is ahead of the two mentioned cats above, to an Elan 434 and to a Bavaria 40.

Dufour 385

Elan 434
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Old 01-12-2016, 19:40   #112
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Finally it seems that the trade winds come for all the fleet even if for some, 10k is what they get. Even so they should be happy after several days with much less than that, for many. Now the ones that have 10k are a minority and many have plenty wind.

Some boats have been sailed at the same pace for a long time, some of them very different boats. Let's have a look at the ones on the head and their strange trios.

The big 78cat, by Nigel Irens:

that has maintained an interesting duel with a Southern Wind 82

and a wally 60


A bit back another interesting trio, a 60ft Outremer 5x

a 40ft Pogoss2

and a 40ft Akilaria

the next group, a bit back a Catana 531

an aluminium Mobile 53

and a medium weight Oyster 655, the only one of all the above boats that it is not a performance boat, even if not a slow one

The truth is that most of these boats have not very different ratings and since they are being well sailed it is normal that they sail at a similar pace.

However many would look at them and think it odd that so different boats, with so different sizes and types to have similar ratings. That is just why I am posting them, to give a general picture regarding boat's performance on the ARC, between different types and sizes of boats.
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Old 02-12-2016, 08:40   #113
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

I will continue posting well sailed boats that have been sailing with about the same pace. I believe it is a good way to give an idea of the well sailed boat's performance on this ARC and as I am going to make it by order of position, the time will come for the smaller boats, even if we talked about two small ones already, even if racing ones.

So, the next group has ahead a Moore 55

followed at some distance by a Lagoon 620

That has at some distance a Dufour 525GL

Note that those boats have much bigger and not so well sailed boats around that I will not mention. For instance the More 55 is ahead of a Swan 65 and very close to a SWS 72, the Lagoon 620 is ahead of a Oyster 745 and the Dufour 525 ahead of two other Lagoon 620.
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Old 02-12-2016, 13:18   #114
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Next group has ahead a medium weight boat, a Discovery 55

followed by a Lagoon 52-2

and an older Beneteau 50
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Old 02-12-2016, 23:17   #115
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Polux, really we have no idea how much diesel these boats have been burning in order to be where they are so until the "race" is over, it doesn't make any difference in their position. Huge times of no wind absolutely must have put some time on their motors.
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Old 03-12-2016, 01:14   #116
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Doubt the full hours on the diesels will be declared. Hasnt happened before so why start now...

Having just rerun the multhulls on the tracker the lagoon 620 in 3rd in particular looks pretty suss
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Old 03-12-2016, 01:53   #117
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

I am not sure but I believe the penalty for motoring is the same for each boat. My boat was only doing 6-7 kts under power while there are many boats that can easily make 8-9 kt or even more. If on top everybody is cheating on motor hours , the results are not significative at all..
By the way, does anybody know how the ratings are calculated for monos and multis ?


Cheers


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Old 03-12-2016, 07:36   #118
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Interesting info I just found on the tracker is the Outremer 5X is sailed by Knut Frostad. He is a former Volvo round the world race sailor and Former CEO of the Volvo of the same race. The guy knows how to sail! From a few videos I have seen he is taking his family on a RTW cruise.
So what I take away from this is a 60' cat loaded down for a big cruise is about as fast as a 40' race boat. I was hoping for a bit more, but I guess the cat is way more comfy.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:51   #119
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Interesting info I just found on the tracker is the Outremer 5X is sailed by Knut Frostad. He is a former Volvo round the world race sailor and Former CEO of the Volvo of the same race. The guy knows how to sail! From a few videos I have seen he is taking his family on a RTW cruise.
So what I take away from this is a 60' cat loaded down for a big cruise is about as fast as a 40' race boat. I was hoping for a bit more, but I guess the cat is way more comfy.
Yes you get it right and if you keep the comparison you will see that is not much faster than an aggressively sailed Mobile 53 cruiser racer monohull or than an heavy and loaded medium weight Oyster 655.

It is good to remember that this is a Transat and that the boats on the North got good trade winds. On an upwind passage the results could be different, specially in what regards some very fast condo cats, like the big Lagoon 620.

We had seen the same on other ARC, namely with 2 Outremer 51.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:56   #120
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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I am not sure but I believe the penalty for motoring is the same for each boat. My boat was only doing 6-7 kts under power while there are many boats that can easily make 8-9 kt or even more. If on top everybody is cheating on motor hours , the results are not significative at all..
By the way, does anybody know how the ratings are calculated for monos and multis ?
..
It is not the penalty that matters but if they have use the engine in a significant way or not. My experience says that almost all boats that are well sailed and that arrived on the head of the transat did not have used the engine or if they have used it, for very few hours.

Curiously it is the slower boats and the ones that arrive on the tail that have used more engine time.

Off course, I will be looking at it at the end of the transat if some of this boats made a significant use of the engine I will post about it.
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