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Old 26-11-2016, 07:56   #91
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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It really all depends on how you sail your boat, whether you're single-handing, helming vs. trimming, etc. I know a few folks that like to sit on the low side where on their boat it gives them a view of the luff and the leech of the jib, forward underneath and a better feel for the boat. But most helmsmen I know choose the high side, particularly on modern boats with fat butts. Better view of the main, which is steering the boat in concert with your rudder, a view of the jib luff, and superior view of the water forward and to windward. I don't know a single driver who choose the low side when racing except during certain maneuvers to maintain tactical vision.

On my boat, when single handing, I will occasionally choose the low side, depending on conditions, but it's largely just because it's more comfortable given the layout of my cockpit.
I don't helm the boat... the AP does it. I watch, trim, check the instruments, clean, fix, cook, eat, read, converse with the wifey. I helm them boat going on and off a dock or a few times a year in and out of a slip. Occasionally when there are fabulous condition I will helm or when the AP is not dealing with large quartering seas well. And no cruiser helms the boat except as I do most probably. It's just too boring... or in rough conditions too exhausting.
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Old 26-11-2016, 10:59   #92
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Looks like the folks who went south are screwed, sailing right into a high.
It seems one can learn something looking at a lot of races and routing (like the Vendee Globe and racing transats with topo sailor). I had said that 5 days ago and I agree with you.

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...
Difficult to say about the others since it seems that the boats that went more to South messed up (at leas in what regards to have a decent wind) and the fastest are losing a lot of time abandoning that option and coming North (that is the case of the Wally 60).

There will be a high center for several days, a big one in the middle of the way and the easiest way is to pass it North.....

On this case it is not only in what regards speed but also comfort versus speed. The ones that go to the North will take winds on the high 20's but as we know that prevision can turn easily when they reach there on 30 or more knots of sustained wind, gusting 40 or more and things can become uncomfortable and the material stressed.

I believe that is why so many went for courses more to the South, away from the rhumb line. I don't understand the ones that went really South.... I believe they will be catch for days in a big zone with almost no wind.
...
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Old 26-11-2016, 11:31   #93
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Improved hugely in what sense? As I understand it displacement hulls are constrained by LWL.. Sure you can get more speed from a more fluid and aerodynamic design per same wind speed and perhaps wave conditions. HUGE? maybe.

Most cruisers are short handed and so unless a boat can be handled by a family or husband on wife it is a race toy as far as I am concerned requiring crew and so forth... and of no interest to me. I speak for me only. I don't want to spend a week with 8 people on a boat. This is not my reason for being on the water or cruising.

Most time for cruisers is not spend in passage either... as is the case for race boats.
If you look at the 200 boats you will find many smaller boats among the bigger ones. LWL is only a factor in what regards a sailboat performance, even if an important one. If you want to have an idea of a boat's speed potential look at the PHRF rating of the boat. You will find ,many small boats with much bigger sailing potential speed than much bigger boats.

And that has nothing to do with a crew being needed to go fast. Most modern boats, even big ones, are designed to be sailed by a couple. Some very fast cruisers are designed to be sailed solo.

As a good example of a small boat designed to be sailed very fast with short crew (they have an optional rigging for that) is the small A35 that is going relatively fast on the ARC even if far from is sailing potential. Here you have one sailed om a transat by a duo. They are also raced (very successful) and sailed solo :


And if you think that a much bigger boat with the same PHRF can go faster, think again, it has been proved that it is not the case, not even with a single or duo crew.

This boat has a good cruising interior. I know you don't like it but that has nothing to do with being adequate to cruising or not, just your personal taste. I find it refreshingly light.
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Old 26-11-2016, 17:06   #94
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

A great story that show how ARC can provide more security and assistance to the ones that are making this transat, versus making it alone on their one.

" Here’s the story from Dorothea and the crew of Hanse 415 Somnium, helping out double-handed sailors Roland and Angela on board Scallywag.

“Scallywag was close by and radioed us this morning. We had a nice chat, exchanged experiences and impressions of the last days and talked about the weather. Additionally they told us that unfortunately their Gennaker halyard ripped and they couldn't fix it yet, as it was quite difficult with just two people on the boat of their size. So our crew on Somnium offered to help.

The crew of Scallywag liked the idea, so the two boats came together in the middle of the Ocean with nothing around. When we have been close together, Sven and Mart swam over to Scallywag to help them fix the problem. Angela and Roland prepared the whole reparation really well, so after some explanation of the Skipper we as a team have been able to climb up to the very top of the 25 m high mast, put a new Gennaker halyard through the mast with the line of the boom lift and solve the problem.

After some refreshing drinks and a really nice talk Sven and Mart swam back to our boat. In addition, Angela and Roland gave us two twenty litre jerry cans of fuel, which meant a lot to us, as we do have more flexibility now, if there will be no wind for more days. Thank you Scallywag!

All together it was a really great happening! We have been really happy to help and meet nice people in the vast emptiness of the Ocean. We are still close by and it was a great atmosphere to see them sailing their Gennaker at sunset
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Old 26-11-2016, 21:56   #95
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Again it depends on what one call slow or fast. All things has to be referred to some reality and the reference her is the ARC. Yes, the Westerly 39 is on the small size regarding ARC average and on the slow side, if we take the speed average of all boats, that are bigger and therefore faster.

Even in what regards speed and size the 39 Westerly is only not slow if you compare it with boats from that era, 30 years ago. It has a PHRF of about 126 that you cannot compare with the one of a relatively smaller fast cruising boat for instance an X37, that has an average PHRF of 72.

But talking about slow modern mass production boats of about the same size, we can compare the 126 PHRF of the Westerly with the 105 from the Bavaria 39, the 105 from the Oceanis 40. If we compare to decently sailing mass production main market boats we would be comparing it with the 80 of the Hanse 400, the 99 of the Hanse 370, the 87 of the Jeanneau SO 409 or even the 102 of the Jeanneau SO 37.

So yes, I would say that by modern parameters (and most of the boats on the ARC are recent boats) the Westerly 39 is a slow boat regarding its size and a very slow boat compared with the average of the boats on the ARC, that are bigger.
Polux, you stop saying my boat is old and slow and I won't be rude about your wife, OK?

That Westerly Sealord ( which is what it is... its not a Westerly 39 ) seems to be doing OK in her class so go pick on the HRs ..
World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer ( filter for Cruising G )

And I would take and have taken her places I would never take the others you are comparing her with.
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Old 27-11-2016, 10:42   #96
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Polux, you stop saying my boat is old and slow and I won't be rude about your wife, OK?

That Westerly Sealord ( which is what it is... its not a Westerly 39 ) seems to be doing OK in her class so go pick on the HRs ..
World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer ( filter for Cruising G )
...
What has my wife to do with boats? Or why I am being rude? Did not even know that your boat was an Westerly 39.

Old or new it depends on what you take as reference. If we take the average of the boats doing the ARC the Westerly 39 is one of the oldest, a design 34 year's old.

Fast or slow it depends on the boats we are comparing the Westerly Sealord 39 with.

Regarding speed being on Class G means that it is among the ones with less speed potential on the fleet. The boats are organized by classes, regarding potential speed (rating) beihg the fastest the Class A, then B, C, D, E, F, G being the slower the ones from H class. The Westerly Sealord 39 is among the slowest from class G (meaning the rating).

https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...TCF%20List.pdf

If we apply the filter we will see that the Westerly 39 among the slower boats on that class, I mean on the water, not regarding compensated time, where it is 9th between the 18 boat of the class, meaning that it has a lesser sail speed potential than others, but that is being better sailed than half of the boats on that class.

Anyway the Westerly is 172nm back from a Bavaria 40 and 95nm back from a Harmony 38 (all in class G) and at 335nm from a Dufour 385 (Class H).

I am only talking about sail performance on this ARC and about facts. I am sure you love your boat as much as most here love their boats
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Old 27-11-2016, 13:00   #97
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Many boats are diverting to Mindelo. They were not supposed to stop there (the ARC+ is the one that stops there) and probably a stop there means some type of trouble, except for a Moody 45DS and a Beneteau Oceanis 58, that were among the first to stop there. They just stopped and go. Probably for a drink Or more realistically for disembarking someone that was not liking the ride

Others stopped for some hours and sailed away, like the small A35, a Halberg Rassy 40 and a Oyster 545, looking like some small problem that was belt dealt with the boat on a port, but an easy one but others are still there, among them a X50, a Lagoon 440, a Oyster 545, a Bavaria 51, a Beneteau 47.7 and a XP 50. A Oyster 51 that was way past the Island is turning back and there seems that there are more boats going there.

Do you want to help to know what happened to those boats? click on the boat on the tracker and it will appear a window. On the bottom click where it says more information and with luck you will have ir or the boat blog where you can look for it.
http://yb.tl/arc2016#

Regarding that Oceanis 58 that stop and go they said:

"Light winds and flat sea state so we started the engine at 14.45, furled the genoa and centred the main. Continued towards Mindelo in the Cape Verde Islands under engine. Squally wet night, so watches not much fun.
....
Gavin, David & Scott left to sort out immigration and visa formalities and we had a leisurely lunch at the floating restaurant in the marina – burgers not a patch on the menu on Boni Venti! Very sadly we had to say goodbye to owner Gavin on the pontoon but we know that he will be back next year to successfully complete this amazing rally. Scott disembarked as well.
..."

So, yes, they stop for disembarking crew and took the opportunity to lunch and to fill up the tanks, before going out again. No breakage on this case.
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Old 28-11-2016, 10:16   #98
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

More information regarding those that stopped on Cabo Verde:

The small A35, that is cruised by a middle aged Spanish couple, stopped for diesel and a lunch. They complained about the lack of wind on the South route, as well as the ones on that Oceanis 58 (no wonder, it was there, on the weather information, for all to see). The Oyster 545 went there to leave a crew member that had to return urgently to Europe.

It seems that most boats that call on Mindelo for a short time had done that for refueling, made water and to buy fresh food. That is the case with the First 47,7, the Lagoon 440 (they also wanted to sleep one night on the port). I have no notice of any boat that went there with due to problems but I never saw so much boats diverting to Mindelo as I saw this year.

Certainly due to a lot of them going on a South route with very little wind, having probably motored a lot and needing fuel. Lots of them continue to arrive there or are pointing there, some having inverted the course, like an Oyster 56. Now for going there all will have to invert course since last boat on the fleet, a catamaran Dean 36 is arriving now.

Meanwhile the first is almost arriving at St Lucia, Rambler, leaving the first VOR70 way behind.

Today the focus goes to an Aluminium designed and built sailboat, the Mobile 53 that is not only nice but goes really fast, ahead of a Swan 76, a Swan 65 and a SWS 72 Also to a more 55 that is sailing on the middle of those big boats.

Regarding smaller boats the focus is on two that are making a great passage, a Dufour 385 anf a FP Lavezzi 40. The 385 left behind a Catana 41 and a Swan 59. The FP cat left behind a Oyster 54, a Beneteau 57 and a Gib Sea 51.


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Old 28-11-2016, 18:12   #99
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Looking at the two tailenders, Hot Stuff and Xarradola, who are level pegging at the moment.... makes me think performance has as much to do with crew as design...
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Old 28-11-2016, 18:14   #100
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

I've read a lot of the blog posts and the light winds are mentioned a lot. Looking at the forecast for next week, it looks like the trades develop quite well. I'm not really great at weather but do you think the ARC leaves too soon? Cornell states that a December start is better as the trades are more constant. Or this this just an odd start to the rally?
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Old 28-11-2016, 18:25   #101
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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I've read a lot of the blog posts and the light winds are mentioned a lot. Looking at the forecast for next week, it looks like the trades develop quite well. I'm not really great at weather but do you think the ARC leaves too soon? Cornell states that a December start is better as the trades are more constant. Or this this just an odd start to the rally?
I think the departure time is definitely timed early so the ARC participants can spend christmas in the Caribbean or fly home and probably save the ARC some costs in both marina bookings at departure and arrival before others. Also fits the ARC global schedule if you intend to do it all in a year and half.
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Old 29-11-2016, 05:33   #102
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Re: ARC 2017 the boats and the performances

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Looking at the two tailenders, Hot Stuff and Xarradola, who are level pegging at the moment.... makes me think performance has as much to do with crew as design...
You are absolutely right. There are yachts from the same model, one near the head of the transact other near the last. I had posted already about that and given examples. I said also several times that a fast boat can be sailed slowly but a slow boat cannot be sailed over its sailing potential.

But not right regarding those two, that now are side by side but only because the First 40.7 leaved Tenerife two days later than the Colvic 37. Soon the Colvic 37, that had already lost 2 days will be far behind.

I am not interested on the boats that are poorly sailed but on the performance of the ones that are well sailed, taking into consideration that this is not a race and that these boats, except the few on the racing class, are loaded boats not only for an Atlantic crossing but to go cruising on the Caribbean.

For instance I am not interested on the performance of a Lagoon 42 or a Leopard 48 that are among the last boats but I am interested on the performance of another Lagoon 42 and another Leopard 48 that are going fast.

Anybody can sail a fast boat slowly but nobody can sail a slow boat faster than what the boat is able to do.
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Old 29-11-2016, 05:52   #103
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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I've read a lot of the blog posts and the light winds are mentioned a lot. Looking at the forecast for next week, it looks like the trades develop quite well. I'm not really great at weather but do you think the ARC leaves too soon? Cornell states that a December start is better as the trades are more constant. Or this this just an odd start to the rally?
No, in fact the guys that went North had good wind. Only the guys that did not looked to the weather reports already available went South. Traditionally on the ARC the boats that want to go faster go North, the ones that want weaker winds go South. What happened this year was the South there was very little wind.

I don't know if this weather pattern for the trade winds is going to change but doing the crossing to Canaries from Europe in November can be quite rough and eventful. Many go to the Canaries in September and wait but it is difficult to have a place because the boats of the ARC+ are already there. Delaying the departure even more would not only represent more waiting time or a riskier cross from Europe to Canaries, for the ones that can't wait there for the ARC to start.

Remember also that there is the ARC+ that has to leave first because they don't have place for all the boats and the boats from the ARC+, that leaved 15 earlier than the ARC, had very good winds till Cabo Verde...and then weak winds till Santa Lucia, but downwind almost all the time.

Modern boats can do already a decent speed with 10k downwind winds and they will enjoy the pleasure of sailing in flat seas. I know my wife would prefer that than 20k all the way
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Old 29-11-2016, 06:14   #104
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Polux, heavily loaded modern boats sailed by cruisers do not get decent speeds DDW in 10 knots of true wind. The seas are seldom flat and it's a pain, nice to have at least 15 knots in those conditions and 20 knots is about perfect.
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Old 29-11-2016, 06:21   #105
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Tricky passage to Saint Lucia and one or two more days without wind and then all is going to change, with good trade winds coming in, but for now that is terrible almost for all, look at the huge high over there.
https://www.windytv.com/?19.518,-38.892,5

The fastest boats ahead have a difficult routing to do since they have just in front of Santa Lucia a smaller High pressure zone without no wind:
https://www.windytv.com/?14.219,-59.310,9

We can see they are taking different options: The big Nigel Irens 78ft cat plus the Farr 83, the SWS 82 and the 40ftPogo are going South, passing the Rhumb line and going to the Island from the South, while a bit back the 60ft Outremer 5x followed by the 40f Akilaria are going to try a Northern approach, trying to circle the high going North, and coming to the Island from North.

It is going to be interesting to see who had the best option. I think it would be difficult from the ones that choose North to recover all the extra way, but they will have good wind till the finish.
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