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Old 26-11-2016, 05:29   #76
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

One of the strangest things on this ARC is the huge lateral separation between boats. There is more lateral separation than the distance between the tail of the Transat and the place where they departed. It certainly does not seem they all are going to the same place



Today the focus is on the little 40ft Pogo s2. Sure it is a racing class40, a relatively old one that would not be competitive on a class 40 race but even so with a great performance here.

Look at the map, first way ahead, goes Rambler followed by the fastest of the VOR 70, old groupama, now named trifork, than at a considerable distance another group with a VOR70, a Swan90 and a Farr 83. Not very far the next group with a huge cat, a Nigel Irens 78, a SWS82 and a 40ft Pogo s2!!!! Than the next group with the 60ft Outremer 5x and the Wally 60 and on the next group the Catana 531 with the 40ft Akilaria class40, also an old one.


The Pogo type of boat on these conditions, like the cats, with strong downwind winds really shine and can match the speed of much bigger boats with an incomparably ease of sailing and needing much less crew.

Curiously that type of boat on races that are not so typed as a transat on the trade winds cannot even match fast performance cruisers of similar size, like a J120 or a first 40. I have observed that on the Sydney Hobart or on the Middle sea Race, several times, on several editions.

But if one wants to do a circumnavigation, or voyage extensively (on the trade winds) there is no better hull shape for that, in what regards speed and easiness (the Pogo 12.50, the cruising boat, shares the hull with the Pogo S2). That type of hull or a cat, if one wants to go fast and easy on the trade winds.
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Old 26-11-2016, 05:38   #77
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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You should concentrate on the several More 55 doing the ARC. Those are the ones most can dream buying. They cost the price of a Bavaria and they are making a 40. Never saw one for real, they don't go to boat shows to save money. They look good on movies and the design and building is good. What is their look for real compared with mass production boats?
I think this sort of galley is not for offshore passages..
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Old 26-11-2016, 05:42   #78
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

I am keeping an eye on Rogue Trader,I think this is a home built Reliant 49,nice looking boat.According to the fleetviewer he is about to be passed by a Greek Oceanis473,the horror...
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Old 26-11-2016, 05:44   #79
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Very funny!!!

The too big professional sail race boats took the routing wrong, had to change tack and the error was so big the the VOR 70 was almost catch by a Discovery 55. Alright the Discover can be using the engine, we will only know later but even so anyway three Oyster 655 are ahead of it (not for much time, I suspect).

Not much better for Rambler even if on this case the diference in speed is so big that nobody catch him. That would be a real scandal.

Regarding the smaller fast cruising yacht the More 55, a Baltic 51 are ahead, a bit after a Hylas 54. These ones are ahead of all the multihulls. The First of this seems to be a Lagoon 52. The Lagoon 42 continues to go fast.


Difficult to say about the others since it seems that the boats that went more to South messed up (at leas in what regards to have a decent wind) and the fastest are losing a lot of time abandoning that option and coming North (that is the case of the Wally 60).

There will be a high center for several days, a big one in the middle of the way and the easiest way is to pass it North.

Anyway regarding this moment we can compare the performances of boats with similar courses so more to the South the best performance goes to that aluminium Russian boat, the Mobile 53 and that Discovery 55. The 48ft Scarlet Oyster continues to do well, side by side with the Grand Soleil 43, followed by a First 40, Lagoon 620 a Swan 57 a Hanse 575 a Oyster 575, a Wasa 55, a Arcona 400, a First 44.7. They are followed at short distance by a A35!!!!!

More to the South, another Hanse 575, a Dufour 44p, a Nautitech 542 a Baltic 50 and a Oyster 625 and a Solaris 42 one.

Still very confusing even if I think the South way is not a good option.

Today's special mention goes to the fantastic performance of the little 35ft performance cruiser, the A35 and to the excellent performance of the Arcona 400. The A 35 is a cruiser-racer with a good interior for cruising but that does not compare with the interior of the Arcona 400 that is a luxurious one.

A35




Arcona 400



Opinion:

The white interior stinks

The teak one is fine.

No comparison
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Old 26-11-2016, 05:49   #80
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Difficult to know who is going fast given the different choices in routing but the ones on the North will have more wind and will be faster with a better chance of completely avoid the high pressure zone ahead.

On that group that has also the advantage of being following the rhumb line special mention for a Oyster 62, a Oyster 655, a More 55 a Catana 531. A bit more to the South mention to a Lagoon 620 and a bit back, among the fastest smaller boats, a Lagoon 420, a FP Lavezzi 40, a Dufour 385, a Grand Soleil 43, a Lagoon 450, a First 40, a Arcona 400, a FP Lucia 40 and a A35.

Today special mention goes to Lagoon, with many boats sailing fast on the trade winds with special relevance to several 620 and the smaller 42 and the special disappointment goes to the the 60ft Outremer 5x the sails behind the Lagoon 42 and to the Wally 60 that is just a bit ahead the Lagoon 42 but way behind the first More 55, behind the second too, behind also of a Baltic 51 and a Beneteau 50!!!! Shame on them

the new Lagoon 42


Opinion:

Very very ugly
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Old 26-11-2016, 05:52   #81
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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And which big boats are the most disappointing ?
I would not say big boats but boats with a very good speed potential being sailed very slowly and in this case it is not really about the boats but about the way they are being sailed. You can sail a fast boat slow but not really sail fast a slow boat, not more than he is able to give

Among the worst sailed a Comet 50s, a XP50 and a 16.50 Lazzi, a nice big aluminium cat, not well known, this one:
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Old 26-11-2016, 05:55   #82
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You are talking about this boat?

If so, he is on the right place to have the better visibility forward and the best sail visibility regarding sail trim.
Sorry, but I find that makes no sense.
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Old 26-11-2016, 05:57   #83
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Opinion:

Very very ugly
That's an opinion. I would not say that is a very nice sailboat but certainly a lot nicer than the previous model (another opinion)



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Old 26-11-2016, 06:01   #84
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Thanks for this thread. It reveals a side of *sailing* which has absolutely no appeal to me.. way too commercial (often vulgar looking), oversized ostentatious toys in some bizarre race which proves nothing and apparently costs a small fortune to enter.

Some of the design elements are fabulous and many are ugly.

We all like to go as fast as we can... but the obsession on speed and competition is troubling... when it permeates into *cruising* in my opinion.

Who knew? I don't read sailing mags, don't visit boats at boat shows... and have no idea where this all came from.

Thanks Polux
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Old 26-11-2016, 06:08   #85
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Sorry, but I find that makes no sense.
This is not an opinion: that is the place you get the better visibility on that kind of boats. I sail one not very different. The visibility forward is very good. The visibility seating on the side (or standing) is way better than seating or standing on the center, In any sailboat and particularly on the ones with a the beam pulled back. On the old ones you did not had that option since the cockpit was narrow and the max beam at the middle of the boat.

Seating there you will see what is ahead of the bow and the waves. Maybe a better picture of this type of boats on another position will make it more clear to you:


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Old 26-11-2016, 06:21   #86
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Thanks for this thread. It reveals a side of *sailing* which has absolutely no appeal to me.. way too commercial (often vulgar looking), oversized ostentatious toys in some bizarre race which proves nothing and apparently costs a small fortune to enter.

Some of the design elements are fabulous and many are ugly.

We all like to go as fast as we can... but the obsession on speed and competition is troubling... when it permeates into *cruising* in my opinion.

Who knew? I don't read sailing mags, don't visit boats at boat shows... and have no idea where this all came from.

Thanks Polux
Race!!!! I had already explained and are not explaining again, the ARC, except for very few boats (10%) that are on a racing division, is a cruising transat. For the other 200 it is a rally, one of many around the world, that joins sailing with a social program.

Comercial? vulgar? You are talking about the boats? They are just recent boats, recent designs, better performance ones, the same way an old car has a worse performance than a recent one and not only in what regards speed.

Ugly? On sail boats it is a question of form following function and the function in this case is a compromise between living space and performance.

On the fastest ones (performance cruisers) the compromise regarding shapes and function is more on sailing potential than on living space, like on the two boats I posted above, but I guess you will find those two ugly too

Anyway cruising boats have improved hugely on the last 30 years in what regards performance, living space and the compromise between the two.

Regarding performance cruisers they are designed for those that value as much sailing pleasure as cruising, a minority. For most a sailboat is more a mean to an end (nothing wrong with that) and what they want is a simple, no trouble sailboat that can move relatively well with an interior as big as possible.

Nothing wrong with that choice too, that is a rational one and is the mainstream of contemporary boat design. I guess that was the majority choice even on the 70's and 80's. Mainstream contemporary boats just offer more in what regards that choice.

That type of boats is the vast majority on this rally and I find it funny you thinking they are obsessed with speed. If that was the case most of the boat would be performance cruisers and they are a minority.

The case here is that nobody wants to pass a month on a crossing when they can do it in 15 days or less.

And why you say they are toys? Because they are better boats? Because one has the money to buy them? I don't understand that one.
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Old 26-11-2016, 07:10   #87
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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This is not an opinion: that is the place you get the better visibility on that kind of boats. I sail one not very different. The visibility forward is very good. The visibility seating on the side (or standing) is way better than seating or standing on the center, In any sailboat and particularly on the ones with a the beam pulled back. On the old ones you did not had that option since the cockpit was narrow and the max beam at the middle of the boat.

Seating there you will see what is ahead of the bow and the waves. Maybe a better picture of this type of boats on another position will make it more clear to you:


I understand the geometry. A heeled boat with that sort of stern would make seeing forward MORE difficult from the high side. So I disagree. But I would have to experience it to make a real world judgment. Of course when the boat is heeled you need to move from CL to see both the sail and what's ahead. I don't care for these sleds with super beamy open cockpits...
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Old 26-11-2016, 07:18   #88
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Looks like the folks who went south are screwed, sailing right into a high.
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Old 26-11-2016, 07:19   #89
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Improved hugely in what sense? As I understand it displacement hulls are constrained by LWL.. Sure you can get more speed from a more fluid and aerodynamic design per same wind speed and perhaps wave conditions. HUGE? maybe.

Most cruisers are short handed and so unless a boat can be handled by a family or husband on wife it is a race toy as far as I am concerned requiring crew and so forth... and of no interest to me. I speak for me only. I don't want to spend a week with 8 people on a boat. This is not my reason for being on the water or cruising.

Most time for cruisers is not spend in passage either... as is the case for race boats.
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Old 26-11-2016, 07:33   #90
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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I understand the geometry. A heeled boat with that sort of stern would make seeing forward MORE difficult from the high side. So I disagree. But I would have to experience it to make a real world judgment. Of course when the boat is heeled you need to move from CL to see both the sail and what's ahead. I don't care for these sleds with super beamy open cockpits...
It really all depends on how you sail your boat, whether you're single-handing, helming vs. trimming, etc. I know a few folks that like to sit on the low side where on their boat it gives them a view of the luff and the leech of the jib, forward underneath and a better feel for the boat. But most helmsmen I know choose the high side, particularly on modern boats with fat butts. Better view of the main, which is steering the boat in concert with your rudder, a view of the jib luff, and superior view of the water forward and to windward. I don't know a single driver who choose the low side when racing except during certain maneuvers to maintain tactical vision.

On my boat, when single handing, I will occasionally choose the low side, depending on conditions, but it's largely just because it's more comfortable given the layout of my cockpit.
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