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Old 25-11-2016, 08:40   #61
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

I find it hard to qualify a Freedom or a Westerly 39 as small or slow.

A small boat is say a Contessa 26. A slow boat is that stahl German homebuilt Van de Stadt with all spares double onboard.

Plastick series 40 footers are often pretty spacious and quite fast (easily 5 to 7 knots in about average conditions).

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Old 25-11-2016, 08:55   #62
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I find it hard to qualify a Freedom or a Westerly 39 as small or slow.

A small boat is say a Contessa 26. A slow boat is that stahl German homebuilt Van de Stadt with all spares double onboard.

Plastick series 40 footers are often pretty spacious and quite fast (easily 5 to 7 knots in about average conditions).

b.
That was 30 years ago. It is not you that defines what is a small boat but the average size that is used. Now what happens is this:

"....the smaller boats, that on the ARC are boats with 46ft or less. In fact these are a minority. ARC is mostly sailed by modern boats and the modern tendency is to sail a bigger boat, mostly mass produced boats, instead of sailing a considerably smaller semi custom boat that would cost the same as the bigger one.

The bigger boat would be faster, would have more stability and even if not probably offering the same durability, most sailors prefer to change more frequently a mass production boat, for a new and more updated model, than to keep a high-quality one for decades one that will become less modern and less performant with time."


Even on the Med my 41ft boat is smaller than most boats with less then 15 years, meaning that sailors are buying bigger and bigger boats for cruising. On this Transat the average is certainly superior than the average on the med and I would say it should be between 45 and 50ft. Very few boats with less than 40ft and even the ones with 40ft are not many in percentage.

I would say that if it was 30 years ago they would be the majority and there would be plenty of boats with less then 40ft. I would say that on the ARC a 40ft boat is a small cruising boat.
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Old 25-11-2016, 09:00   #63
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
By and large monos are as fast as the cruising cats, there may be a little more on tap with the cats but the owners wisely sail them on the conservative side while the monos can be much more aggressive without the fears of capsize. We are cruising on an older designed mono hull and crossing the Atlantic we were around the same speed or faster than most of the cats around our size and if there was any windward legs we would be well ahead. As I said I think the cats had a bit more on tap but we're more conservative. These boats are not purchased for speed, it's all about the room and comfort levels and anyone who has spent any time on them can understand that.
I agree with you and I would say more, the cats that are bought not only because of the space, but also because they are fast (performance cats) end up to be not significantly faster than condo cats and I believe that the same logic applies:

Sailors of performance cats know they sail very light boats that can capsize more easily than condo cats and sail them even more conservatively then the ones that have condo cats an in the end the speed is not very different on a transat.
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Old 25-11-2016, 09:07   #64
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Polux where did you find the account that the german family sailed with a wet bilge problem?
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Old 25-11-2016, 09:24   #65
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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And here they go, looking like firework



You can follow them on the tracker:
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Now how did they cram all those boats into that little port? :
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Old 25-11-2016, 11:05   #66
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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(...)

I would say that on the ARC a 40ft boat is a small cruising boat.
Maybe. But the phrase I referred to was " ... the little slow boats ..."

A 39' Westerly is neither little nor slow. Even when it is smaller and slower than a 60' Oyster.

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Old 25-11-2016, 12:05   #67
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Maybe. But the phrase I referred to was " ... the little slow boats ..."

A 39' Westerly is neither little nor slow. Even when it is smaller and slower than a 60' Oyster.

b.
Again it depends on what one call slow or fast. All things has to be referred to some reality and the reference her is the ARC. Yes, the Westerly 39 is on the small size regarding ARC average and on the slow side, if we take the speed average of all boats, that are bigger and therefore faster.

Even in what regards speed and size the 39 Westerly is only not slow if you compare it with boats from that era, 30 years ago. It has a PHRF of about 126 that you cannot compare with the one of a relatively smaller fast cruising boat for instance an X37, that has an average PHRF of 72.

But talking about slow modern mass production boats of about the same size, we can compare the 126 PHRF of the Westerly with the 105 from the Bavaria 39, the 105 from the Oceanis 40. If we compare to decently sailing mass production main market boats we would be comparing it with the 80 of the Hanse 400, the 99 of the Hanse 370, the 87 of the Jeanneau SO 409 or even the 102 of the Jeanneau SO 37.

So yes, I would say that by modern parameters (and most of the boats on the ARC are recent boats) the Westerly 39 is a slow boat regarding its size and a very slow boat compared with the average of the boats on the ARC, that are bigger.
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Old 25-11-2016, 12:12   #68
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Color me dumb.... but why is the helmsmen on the windward side? Doesn't this block his view of the genny's leech?
You are talking about this boat?

If so, he is on the right place to have the better visibility forward and the best sail visibility regarding sail trim.
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Old 25-11-2016, 12:33   #69
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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I have to say what I enjoy seeing in these races is the little slow boats that somehow are kicking ass and taking names, like Freedom, the Westerly 39. They may be in the back, but they are in the neighborhood of 50 footers. Bravo.

So much is chance in these long ocean races, particularly among the set that don't have very experienced weathermen running Expedition with fistfuls of data coming in. Make one bad call on a route and you're screwed.
You should then look to the A35 (there is a photo of one on the first posts of the thread) and to the Dufour 385, they are really kicking ass.

The 385 is ahead of two racing Challenge 72, ahead of a Chris white 55ft trimaran, Near a Catana 47 and the Dufour 385 is not even a performance boat but surely has some performance sailors as crew

The A35 that is a very beautiful small performance cruiser, or cruiser racer, is sailing side by side with an Oceanis 58, a Dufour 455, a X50 and is ahead of a Oyster 545, and a Lagoon 440.

Also have a look at an Elan 37, sailed only by girls that is ahead of a Leopard 48, is just a bit behind a Lagoon 560 and is sailing side by side with another big cat, a Lazzi 16.50.
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Old 25-11-2016, 12:53   #70
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Nej. Boats making easily 100 mile days are simply NOT slow.

The boat full of girls is slow. Maybe they fitted one too many.

;-)

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Old 25-11-2016, 12:58   #71
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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I think it's apples to oranges regarding the crews, not the boats. Most of the cats are probably families or very casual sailors, using the ARC primarily as a means of getting to the Caribbean. Most of the big monos are sailed harder, not because they are safer but because their crew is actually trying harder to go fast.
No, there are fast cats and fast monohulls, depending on the sailors and I don't think the monohulls are being sailed harder.

Look for instance to similar cats, a Lagoon 42 being sailed very fast near the head of the transat and another one slowly, near the tail, the same happens regarding two Lagoon 450 and regarding two Leopard 48, meaning one on the head another on the tail.

The truth is that very few of the boats on the ARC are racing but nobody likes to stay behind so many crews are doing what they can, specially the ones that go fast. It is possible to sail a fast boat slowly but not possible to sail a slow boat over what he is able to do and that's why this Transat with loaded boats is interesting, if we exclude the very small racing division that is something apart.

Most boats are sailed by the owners, friends and family and are doing the Atlantic loop, going to the Caribbean on the European winter and coming back to Europe on the summer, while many others are charter boats, sailed by a good skipper but with a inexperienced charter crew and they are going to sail the boats to the Caribbean for the charting season and will bring them back in summer to the Med, for the Med charter season.

Very few racing crews on a small racing division and except on the Rambler and on the Trifork, most of them 2th rate amateur racing crews.
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Old 25-11-2016, 15:58   #72
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I find it hard to qualify a Freedom or a Westerly 39 as small or slow.

A small boat is say a Contessa 26. A slow boat is that stahl German homebuilt Van de Stadt with all spares double onboard.

Plastick series 40 footers are often pretty spacious and quite fast (easily 5 to 7 knots in about average conditions).

b.
It's all relative. The Westerly 39 is an older boat, and one of the smaller/smallest boats in the race. With a PHRF rating of 126 it should be getting dusted by virtually every other 40'er in the race. Against the 50'ers, it should be lagging by a whole time zone by now.
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Old 25-11-2016, 18:22   #73
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
It's all relative. The Westerly 39 is an older boat, and one of the smaller/smallest boats in the race. With a PHRF rating of 126 it should be getting dusted by virtually every other 40'er in the race. Against the 50'ers, it should be lagging by a whole time zone by now.
The boat is slow and it is not particularly well sailed. It is on the tail of the transat and it has ahead boats like a Moody 38 or a Hunter 36, unless we are talking about a different Westerly 39. I can see only one on the race, Freedom.

And that satellite signal on the aluminium boat (Noah) that should have already sunk keeps working. Odd! Maybe one of those boats that had sailed later from Las Palmas, The Colvic 37 or the First 40.7 can pass there and see what's going on. It seems that their course will not pass far away.
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Old 26-11-2016, 04:40   #74
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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I'd like to mention that our fellow CF'er, CarstenB, who is a moderator in this community, has taken first place in his class for the first leg in his Jeanneau SunFast 40 "Capri".

Carsten is a good friend of mine and has crewed on my boat for two North Sea crossings. He's a great sailor and loves a nice hard sail to weather in lively conditions like I do. He's also a good cook and makes the world's best guacamole. I spent a couple of weeks tied up behind his house in Copenhagen Harbor last May, on my way to Finland. We had a great time there and also helped him prepare his boat for his transat.

Let's wish him and his wife similar good luck on the current leg!!
I did not have saw this post. I was wondering if Carsten was making this ARC or not, He had talked about making it last year. Unfortunately for me, he is making the ARC+, the smaller transat that has created when the ARC become too big to house in harbour all the boats at the same time, so I have not being paying attention.

The ARC + is made normally by less sportive sailors, with exception of the cat sailors that made it on the first years their favorite transat till last year. Last year the fastest multihulls were already doing the ARC (the main event) and this year even more chose the ARC.

However some fast cat sailors prefere to shine on the ARC+ where the competition is smaller and the boats slower (this year the fastest monohull there is an Halberg Rassy 63 and the fastest cat a lagoon 450, neither of them particularly fast boats).

The reasons I don't follow the ARC+ has to do with the fact that it has much less boats, that in what regards monohulls it has very few sailors that take it in a more sportive way, the fact that the possibility of taking fuel again in Cabo verde makes the use of engines much more frequent making the results less significant.

But off course, I wish all good luck to Carsten and his Jeanneau Sunfast 40 (Capri), one of the smaller boats on the fleet.
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Old 26-11-2016, 04:56   #75
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re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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And that satellite signal on the aluminium boat (Noah) that should have already sunk keeps working. Odd! Maybe one of those boats that had sailed later from Las Palmas, The Colvic 37 or the First 40.7 can pass there and see what's going on. It seems that their course will not pass far away.
It's just showing it's last reported position. The last update from the tracker is three days ago.
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