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Old 21-12-2016, 08:05   #256
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Originally Posted by Bleemus View Post
To be honest all of this means nothing. We have no idea what boats were pushed hard, which boats were more concerned with fishing and great meals, or if anyone on board knew how to trim sails properly. Useless stats to be honest.
It's fun to review Polux's stats and he puts it into a good form but in the end I agree with you, the results mean very little.There is such a range of sailors, different skill levels,motoring while others were sailing and on and on, it's all pretty meaningless. Even in a real race there are lots of variations depending on the winds that can have slower boats beating faster boats but these cruise rally's really shouldn't be looked at with the idea of figuring out performance levels of different boats. We crossed at the same time as the ARC a couple of years ago and we're a week ahead of the same boat on that crossing, some would look at the ARC results and say it was a slow boat but in reality I suspect they partied there eyes out and sailed thru the night with a reefer jib only, maybe stopped for awhile and went swimming, probably just couldn't care less.
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Old 21-12-2016, 10:00   #257
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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To be honest all of this means nothing. We have no idea what boats were pushed hard, which boats were more concerned with fishing and great meals, or if anyone on board knew how to trim sails properly. Useless stats to be honest.
If you cannot tell conclusions about the data it is up to you but there are 220 boat here making an Atlantic crossing at the same time, 200 cruising with loaded boats and I only selected the fastest of each group, considering size, and those are obviously well sailed.

I posted also the engine hours so, regarding those boats you have a idea of what they are cable of, in what regards passage times and even in what the use of engine can contribute to those passage times, depending on the type of boat.

Some had already said that they had learned something regarding types of boats and passage times on this thread and I personally, that have done this for years, have certainly learned a lot.

Has I would do this anyway, just for learning, it is not a big trouble to post it here, for the ones that consider it useful and by the number of views, it seems they are a substancial number. The one that cannot take from this data any relevant information have no reason to visit this thread and certainly have something better to do with their time.
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Old 21-12-2016, 11:12   #258
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Number of monohulls considered on the different groups: 55
Number of catamarans considered on the different groups: 17

Considering the proportion between cats and monohulls on the ARC we can say that globally and perceptually the number of cats on these groups was bigger.

Considering the boast on these groups the average number of engine hours was bigger in what regards cats (62 engine hours) than in what regards monohulls (54 engine hours).
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Old 21-12-2016, 21:04   #259
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

The assumptions you are making on relative performance are meaningless unless you have a scientific base of potential performance. A better way to do this is to gather the polars for each boat and run through a simulation using historical data for the weather of the time period involved. This would tell you the amount of time the boat would take for the passage based on the crew sailing it to the best polars relative to the current weather at the time.

From that you would find out which boats were sailed well and which ones weren't only. Nothing more. You seem to be trying to determine which boats are "best" while completely disregarding crew motivation and goals. You dont need ARC results, you just need accurate polars. ARC results mean nothing because each crews experience and desire to sail the boat to 100% potential is completely random. Polars tell you what you want to know if all you are concerned with is speed. As for who caught the most fish, had the most bottles of wine or danced the most on the foredeck under a starry night to some Bob Marley tunes that is something you can't measure.
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Old 21-12-2016, 22:01   #260
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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You dont need ARC results, you just need accurate polars.
IMO, your chance of getting meaningful ARC results are better than getting ACCURATE polars for that diverse group of boats. And calculated polars are never going to be representative of cruise-loaded boats.

But what's the point, anyway? Results of a rally where engine hours are only measured in time, with no consideration of throttle settings are not ever going to be useful, even if everyone reported honestly. Some folks are happy thrashing at WOT, others like to just keep the boat moving to conserve fuel, etc.

So, while interesting in a way, I can't take much value from Pollux's careful compiling of results.

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Old 22-12-2016, 10:56   #261
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Originally Posted by Bleemus View Post
The assumptions you are making on relative performance are meaningless unless you have a scientific base of potential performance. A better way to do this is to gather the polars for each boat and run through a simulation using historical data for the weather of the time period involved. This would tell you the amount of time the boat would take for the passage based on the crew sailing it to the best polars relative to the current weather at the time.

From that you would find out which boats were sailed well and which ones weren't only. Nothing more. You seem to be trying to determine which boats are "best" while completely disregarding crew motivation and goals. You dont need ARC results, you just need accurate polars. ARC results mean nothing because each crews experience and desire to sail the boat to 100% potential is completely random. Polars tell you what you want to know if all you are concerned with is speed. As for who caught the most fish, had the most bottles of wine or danced the most on the foredeck under a starry night to some Bob Marley tunes that is something you can't measure.
As I said before, not interested in what each boat can do regards racing and in what regards that there is information regarding many boats.

I am interested in seeing in over 200 boats that made the ARC, or even more on the 1000 boats or so on the 5 or 6 ARC that I had monitored, what are their performance in what regards cruising passage time with the boats loaded, taking into consideration the length of the boat and the type of the boat, using the engine, more or less.

It is obvious, for someone with a bit of knowledge about the boats what are the ones well sailed and what are not. Besides it exists a rating that works reasonably well and provides you during all passage approximate information regarding that.

What interests me is much more the passage times of different types of boats than about passage times of boats with similar sailing characteristics.

For instance, older designs, full keel boats or modified fin keel boats, have here a similar passage time as more modern medium weight cruisers, like an Oyster or a Discovery?

Are lighter performance monohull cruisers, that typically carry much less diesel than those boats and accept not so well the extra weight, be able to do better or equal to those medium weight boats? Considering that their ability to motoring hours is much less?

How about condo cats passage times, with a much bigger tankage and engine hour potential, compared with the ones of performance cats, that have not only less tankage as are more performance susceptible regarding extra weight?

What about the passage time of those types of cats compared with the performance of different types of monohulls?

Again, only considered relatively well sailed sailboats, and in 200 obviously there are a percentage that are.

I admit this year was not very interesting in what regards statistical information with exception of the faster boats that chose the North route.

A big diference in wind or lack of it regarding the the ones that chose the South route or even regarding the ones that come by North but were smaller or slower. Even so it allowed to consolidate information that was retired from other ARC regarding all those points.
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Old 22-12-2016, 12:35   #262
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

I'm only interested in sailboats, I never liked catamarans and trimarans very much they're just glorified rafts with sails. Sailboats are my passion. I understand that others find passion in catamarans and trimarans and that's cool and all, just don't confuse them with sailboats.

The data is interesting and you can draw come conclusions from it, I'm more of a cruiser myself though so for me comfort is more important than speed even though speed - in general - isn't a minus.
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Old 23-12-2016, 06:11   #263
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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here is the proof . 4 kn winds. and they were moving less than 1 kn. Start of race. I am in loss where you get 6,7,8 kn in 6 kn wind unless in absolutely flat like conditions.
I know you have changed opinion regarding this based on speeds on your own sailboat but I have finally found out polars for very low wind speeds on race boats. They are very hard to find, mostly starting on 6K. These one regards IMOCA 60ft race boats, boats that are not fast on light winds (all those boats on the photo would be probably faster on those conditions).

As you can also see on the photo performance in very light winds is not dependent on boat size and has we can see the diference between the wind and the speed is bigger in very light winds, where more wind the boat is able to make, and decreases as the wind is becoming stronger.

I am only considering the main and Jib configuration even if with other configurations (that we see on the photo you posted) the speed can be bigger, namely with geenaker or code 0.

You can find the polar here (flat water): Vendée Globe 2016

2k wind - 3.8k speed-----3k wind - 5.6K speed.....4 wind - 7.4K speed

Off course these speeds are maintained through some with angles but impossible on others, being than the speeds smaller. That dynamic polar speed is very interesting in what regards to see the range for different speeds.

Finally, this is a polar from a race boat, not faster in light winds than the speed the racers on the photo are able to make, but significantly better than what a performance cruising sailboat, even a cruiser racer, is able to do.

On that photo the wind should really be very very weak, something like 1k wind speeds were even race sailboats have trouble winning over inertia and wet surface. For instance, with 1k wind on that polar the speed would only be 1.2k.

We can se e that there is almost no wind on that photo. The sails, that are light racing sails, are not tight and even the very light geenakers have trouble flying. No trouble to have geenakers flying in 4k steady wind.
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Old 23-12-2016, 10:12   #264
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Some of the best movies that were posted till now:

Two very different boats, but two that sailed well on this ARC and made fast passages, the More 55 and the Wasa 55:

Rambler arriving:

and two from the start:

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Old 14-01-2017, 11:18   #265
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

The videos keep appearing: that "old" Wally 60 that was faster than the 59ft Outremer 5X:

and one of those two Elan 434 that made a great passage:

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Old 14-01-2017, 12:33   #266
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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I'm only interested in sailboats, I never liked catamarans and trimarans very much they're just glorified rafts with sails. Sailboats are my passion. I understand that others find passion in catamarans and trimarans and that's cool and all, just don't confuse them with sailboats.
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Old 14-01-2017, 13:17   #267
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
I'm only interested in sailboats, I never liked catamarans and trimarans very much they're just glorified rafts with sails. Sailboats are my passion. I understand that others find passion in catamarans and trimarans and that's cool and all, just don't confuse them with sailboats.
But is anyone interested in knowing this?
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Old 14-01-2017, 13:22   #268
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Garbage
Yes, some are very fast raftssome are beautiful and they all are sailboats for sure.

That is and odd opinion from someone who has a passion for sailboats but it seems that he was a very narrow understanding in what regards that since new monohulls are not also sailboats but Pizzas with sails.

For him to be a sailboat it has to be an old slow monohull. Well, there are tastes for everything and one can call what one wants to sailboats, even saying that they are not sailboats.

I knew a guy that called old shoes to old designed sailboats. It is hard to understand people that call to sailboats pizzas, old shoes and rafts even more when they say that they love sailboats
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Old 14-01-2017, 14:20   #269
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Everyone has a bias so that's a given, sometimes the bias comes from experience, sometimes because that's all the person can afford or maybe they just don't find something attractive or its just not a good choice for the mission. .. it's just part of being human. People don't like glass boats or they don't like metal, they hate manual heads, you know the list goes on and on. But in the end most of what is discussed on this forum is opinions and they are neither right or wrong. My one true bias is I don't like boats that have had too many short cuts when they were built.
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Old 14-01-2017, 19:50   #270
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Everyone has a bias so that's a given, sometimes the bias comes from experience, sometimes because that's all the person can afford or maybe they just don't find something attractive or its just not a good choice for the mission. .. it's just part of being human. ...
I don't buy that regarding everybody having a bias and that is human: You mean because someone cannot afford luxury yachts, or new yachts, or maxi yachts he cannot like them or has a bias towards them? That does not make sense and it is not the case at least with many.

Sure, some cannot appreciate what they cannot own as a sailboat or anything else than what they will prefer as type of yacht for cruising and will only consider nice what they can have or the type of yacht they will favor according to their personal taste.

I would say that is not liking yachts in a general sense, since those like only what fits them. That is very narrowing in what regards a broad look on yacht design, modern and historically speaking.
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