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Old 10-12-2016, 16:45   #181
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

But most rallies don't HAVE prizes for first, second third etc. And nor should they - a rally is not SUPPOSED to be a race!


But when people talk about finishing order, and there are prizes, ie it's treated and talked about like a RACE, and all based on an honour system for reporting engine use, there's bound to be trouble....
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Old 10-12-2016, 18:34   #182
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
But most rallies don't HAVE prizes for first, second third etc. And nor should they - a rally is not SUPPOSED to be a race!

But when people talk about finishing order, and there are prizes, ie it's treated and talked about like a RACE, and all based on an honour system for reporting engine use, there's bound to be trouble....
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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
...

As has been said: it's not a race, it shouldn't be called a race,..
So it is a race or it is not a race?

It is a race on the racing division, it is not a race on the cruising division but a rally.

Yes there is prizes as in any rally, but who cares? Not serious prices in what concerns the cruising rally, everybody knows that it is not a race, except on the racing division.

The first cat in real time did not even bother to finish the rally and went directly to Arruba.

The only true racing is done on the racing division, where the engine cannot be used for propulsion and I wonder why never any cat has done the ARC on the racing division?

About 40 this year and by that interview (posted above) it seemed to me that Knut Frostad was racing, not using the engine without any wind and all....why the well was he doing it on the cruising division?
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Old 11-12-2016, 00:27   #183
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Yes there is prizes as in any rally, but who cares?
Wrong, yet again....
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Old 11-12-2016, 01:15   #184
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Protests... in a RALLY??? good grief!

Another reason to not go on such events (for me, at least).

Jim
That's exactly the point. To me Rally and Racing are two different concepts that don't go alone well.
Rally is about fun, family, fishing/cooking/drinking..
Race is risk taking, pushing to the limits, professional crews, various sponsorships, etc.

The non race divisions in ARC stand just in between; time is kept, the winners are recognized but motoring is free, is even incentivated and not monitored.. Moreover, there is a strange rating system that nobody know how it has been determined.
On the other hand, professional skippers are allowed on rally divisions racing with first time ocean cruisiers..

To me, there should be clear distinction between rally and race divisions. In racing divisions engines should be sealed, clear rating system has to be established and the boats above certain rating should not be allowed on rally divisions.
The rally division should be either purely fun (people participating just for the peace of mind, safety, socialising, etc) or if one intends to continue withe same format, then;
-the boats like Dean 38 and X 5 shouldn't be in the same group just because they are both multihullls,
-professional skippers shouldn't be allowed on these boats,
-a clear rating system has to be set up and communicated, all boats have to be checked accordingly,
-motoring can be free but should be heavily penallised.

Nevertheless, from commercial standpoint ARC is a success and I don't think they willl change anything..

Cheers

Yeloya
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Old 11-12-2016, 01:18   #185
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
That's exactly the point. To me Rally and Racing are two different concepts that don't go alone well.
Rally is about fun, family, fishing/cooking/drinking..
Race is risk taking, pushing to the limits, professional crews, various sponsorships, etc.

The non race divisions in ARC stand just in between; time is kept, the winners are recognized but motoring is free, is even incentivated and not monitored.. Moreover, there is a strange rating system that nobody know how it has been determined.
On the other hand, professional skippers are allowed on rally divisions racing with first time ocean cruisiers..

To me, there should be clear distinction between rally and race divisions. In racing divisions engines should be sealed, clear rating system has to be established and the boats above certain rating should not be allowed on rally divisions.
The rally division should be either purely fun (people participating just for the peace of mind, safety, socialising, etc) or if one intends to continue withe same format, then;
-the boats like Dean 38 and X 5 shouldn't be in the same group just because they are both multihullls,
-professional skippers shouldn't be allowed on these boats,
-a clear rating system has to be set up and communicated, all boats have to be checked accordingly,
-motoring can be free but should be heavily penallised.

Nevertheless, from commercial standpoint ARC is a success and I don't think they willl change anything..

Cheers

Yeloya
This is starting to sound like the 'who sits where in the longship' scene in Eric the Viking
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Old 11-12-2016, 04:53   #186
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
That's exactly the point. To me Rally and Racing are two different concepts that don't go alone well.
Rally is about fun, family, fishing/cooking/drinking..
Race is risk taking, pushing to the limits, professional crews, various sponsorships, etc.

The non race divisions in ARC stand just in between; time is kept, the winners are recognized but motoring is free, is even incentivated and not monitored.. Moreover, there is a strange rating system that nobody know how it has been determined.
On the other hand, professional skippers are allowed on rally divisions racing with first time ocean cruisiers..
....
Nevertheless, from commercial standpoint ARC is a success and I don't think they willl change anything..

Cheers

Yeloya
And I don't think there is any reason to be modified and certainly racing protests do exist on the racing division, the only that is a sail race.

I agree that there is not much sense in doing protests on the cruising division because all agree that is just a fake race for taking away the boredom of a long passage and keeping cruisers entertained. Motoring cannot exist in any sail race since it is forbidden by all international ruling bodies of sail racing.

If someone wants to race on the ARC, doing no motoring at all, a thing that only someone racing will do on a long passage that had a lot of weak winds, than doing it on the cruising class makes no sense at all.

Regarding that Outremer 60ft that it seems it was raced on the cruising class by a top racer it only makes sense to compare his results with the ones of the racing class, even if in what regards racing it seems that there are few cat sailors interested in it since we had never see one racing on the racing division.

Regarding the Outremer 5x results while racing they were quite good, coming some hours behind an old 60ft racing monohull (Wally 60) and practically at the same time of a 40ftPogo s2 leaving at some hours the other 40ftclass racer, an Akilaria.

Regarding the information I want to extract from the ARC, that has nothing to do with racing. I can care less about compensated results (that is what is about this type of racing), engine hours compensation and all that stuff. For that I look at races that have much more sailboats than the little racing division on the ARC and where motoring si forbidden.

What I am looking here is about passage times with cruising boats fully loaded. On a passage all cruising sailors use the engine, like the ones on the cruising division and the times one does on passage take that on account, if one is cruising.

Regarding cruising boats not all are the same, some are heavier and have a huge tankage (that includes cats) other are much lighter and have a much smaller tankage being the use of engine much more limited by that factor, but to balance that, they sail much better.

It is about all those factors and also bigger and smaller boats, that I look for information regarding cruising passage times among different types of sailboats. It is an information that makes sense to me in what regards the choice of a cruising sailboat for making passages on the trade winds and an information, that looking at overall number of views, taking into consideration the relatively small number of posts, interests other cruisers.

Regarding that there is no other place as good as the ARC to collect information, with about 200 boats on the cruising division and cruising boats of all types and sizes.
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Old 11-12-2016, 09:27   #187
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

7th Group
ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

This group is constituted by boats with a length till 50ft. Let's remember that several boats with less size had arrived on the groups that arrived first, starting by the first group, but they are more numerous on this group, that even so had arrived in the middle of bigger boats.

The first of this group to arrive was a small Pronavia 42, a performance cruiser built in very small numbers. It arrived 3 hours and the half after the last of the last group, a Jeanneau 49DS. He made the passage in about 18 days and 19 hours after 5 hours arrived a Baltic 50, then 2 hours later the older Swan 46, about 4 hours later a Elan 434 and a First 40.

Next, several hours later arrived a boat that was not among these but that have recovered a lot of time, deserving his place on this group, a new Garcia SC48:


6 hours after, a First 40.7, one hour after, a Lagoon 42, 5 hours after, a Lagoon 450. With more 6 hours followed the first boat of the next group, that arrived with the group ahead, a Dufour 44p, at 1 hour and almost together, 4 boats, other Elan 434, a X43 from the next group, the last of this group, a Jeanneau 50 DS and a boat that at the time was being slower but, recovering a lot, deserves to be on this group since it finished among them, an almost new Grand Soleil 47:


These last boats made the passage in about 20 days 0 hour.
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Old 12-12-2016, 06:50   #188
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Finally the 8th group,
ARC 2016 the boats and the performances
the one that seems to interest most here, boats with 45ft and under. We have seen that many, most of them performance cruisers, had already entered with previous groups.

There are some boats that had already arrived on the previous group that are not performance cruisers. Among monohulls that percentage is bigger in what regards cats, meaning that it seems to exist a bigger average difference on passage times between monohull performance cruisers and main market monohull cruisers then in what regards the diference between performance cats and condo cats.

From this group several boats went faster and arrived on the previous group, namely the Doufour 44p and the X43 (two performance cruisers), so excluding those two, the first boat to arrive on this group was a Lagoon 450 and the Allures 45, that entered about 2 hours from the last of the previous group, the X 43. They made the passage in about 20 days 2 hours.

Next, at about 1 hour come a Bavaria 40, at about more 3 hours, a XC 45, about 3 hours later and close, a Lagoon 42 and a Moody 45DS. Next arrived first boat of the last group that went faster, a First 40, then the Jeanneau SO 45.2 that made the Passage in 20 days 14 hours.

From this group a boat was slower since the last report and entered with the first of the last group, the Maxi 1300.

Tomorrow and almost in real time, I will post the time passage of the boats from the last considered group, the ones with 40ft or less.
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Old 13-12-2016, 09:21   #189
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

No, not the last group as I said above, but the group of boats with 40ft or less. There is another one, the group of boats with 37 feet or less.

Some boats with 40ft or less, have already finished the passage long ago, with special relevance for a Dufour 385 that had arrived several days ahead of any of these boats.

Group 9 (40ft or less):
ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

The first boat to arrive on this group has the Halberg Rassy 40, that made the passage in 20 days and 22 hours. Followed at 1 hour and 1/2 by the Max1 1300 from the previous group, 1 hour and 1/2 after entered the 2th First 40 and 1 hour after the Fountain Pajot Lucia 40.

7 hours after arrived the smaller Italia 10. 98 (37ft), 8 hours after arrived the even smaller A35 (that had spent almost 24 hours in Cabo Verde) and finally the last of this group, at 4 hours, a Lagoon 380 S2 that made the passage in 21 days and 22 hours.

As usual, these boats were relatively well sailed and arrived on the middle of considerable bigger boats, for instance the A35 (that stopped in Cabo Verde) arrived ahead of a Discovery 55 that made it directly.

Tomorrow we will post about the last group, the 10th, the one with only 37ft sailboats and smaller.
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Old 13-12-2016, 13:24   #190
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Nice video Yeloya. Still, I'll feel little guilt firing up a motor because my friends all have jobs and family and only so much time to take off or be away from them. Sitting for 3 days not moving and them all missing flights and work simply doesn't make sense for us. Having said that, and posted earlier how much we motored to get to the Azores, it seems these guys in the ARC really, really motor a lot. Some of the boats have over 200 engine hours.
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Old 13-12-2016, 13:32   #191
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

Those are the results from the ARC+ that typically is made by the ones that like less to sail and more to motor, having a pit stop on Cabo verde to refuel.

When the engine data of the ARC comes out I will post it here, with reference to the boats I have been posting, the ones that made a relatively fast passage.

Anyway this year is natural that there is more engine hours since there were full days without any wind.

I agree with you, if one is cruising and there is no wind, does not make not to use the engine, if one has enough fuel. What I am interested is in cruising passage times, including the use of engine.
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Old 13-12-2016, 13:33   #192
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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Nice video Yeloya. Still, I'll feel little guilt firing up a motor because my friends all have jobs and family and only so much time to take off or be away from them. Sitting for 3 days not moving and them all missing flights and work simply doesn't make sense for us. Having said that, and posted earlier how much we motored to get to the Azores, it seems these guys in the ARC really, really motor a lot. Some of the boats have over 200 engine hours.
my wife starts steering at me after 15 min of not going anywhere. then i turn on engines.
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Old 13-12-2016, 13:39   #193
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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my wife starts steering at me after 15 min of not going anywhere. then i turn on engines.
With my wife we established a limit: If the boat si doing less than 3k, then I will have to turn the engine. Anyway she starts protesting if the boat went under 4k.

Fortunately my boat with that wind can go faster than the wind on most points of sail but there are times without practically no wind at all.
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Old 13-12-2016, 13:48   #194
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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With my wife we established a limit: If the boat si doing less than 3k, then I will have to turn the engine. Anyway she starts protesting if the boat went under 4k.

Fortunately my boat with that wind can go faster than the wind on most points of sail but there are times without practically no wind at all.
your boat is better in light winds. Also, where you sail not much confused seas, i guess. I have noticed around sydney, that sleek looking monos on average motor as much as I do. Sail dumping because of roll on open ocean affects all, one needs most times 7 or so kn of wind to go 4-5 kn.
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Old 13-12-2016, 14:58   #195
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Re: ARC 2016 the boats and the performances

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it seems these guys in the ARC really, really motor a lot. Some of the boats have over 200 engine hours.
Sometimes I sail with 5 kts of wind making 2-3 kts of speed on coastal day sailing; it's fun and good practice to improve yr trimming skills. On my passage though I had decided to motor if we could not make min120 nm per day.
Thanks God, it only happened once when we were at 1000 nm to St Lucia; 7-8 kts of wind sailing DDW. Having ripped off the spinneaker already the 3rd day, we could only make 3 , max 4 kts of speed with main and genoa and we started motoring. Having not taken extra fuel, after half a day we had to cut the engine and soon after the wind picked up..

To me, the ARC starts way too early , the trades settle much later compared to 10-15 years ago (global warming ??) Many recent ARC's had very unfavorable winds. I had started 6th of Jan and did it in 17 days with 10 hours of motoring with a relatively slow catamaran, Orana.

Regarding the motoring hours, I have just checked the multi's; I cannot believe that L 450 (classified 1st) has arrived 4 days earlier than L570 (one of the fastest Lagoon ever made) and motoring only 5 hours vs. 37 hours of motoring for L 570. This is ridiculous...
There might be people believeing in that but not me..

Cheers

Yeloya
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